Luminious mind

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Sherab
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Luminious mind

Post by Sherab »

"Luminous, monks, is the mind. And it is defiled by incoming defilements."
"Luminous, monks, is the mind. And it is freed from incoming defilements."
"Luminous, monks, is the mind. And it is defiled by incoming defilements. The uninstructed run-of-the-mill person doesn't discern that as it actually is present, which is why I tell you that -- for the uninstructed run-of-the-mill person -- there is no development of the mind."
"Luminous, monks, is the mind. And it is freed from incoming defilements. The well-instructed noble disciple discerns that as it actually is present, which is why I tell you that -- for the well-instructed noble disciple -- there is development of the mind."

Anguttara Nikaya I.49-52
Pabhassara Suttas

The above verses seem to say that the key to development of the mind is to discern that as it actually is present. What is that as it actually is present?
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jcsuperstar
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Re: Luminious mind

Post by jcsuperstar »

Sherab wrote:"

The above verses seem to say that the key to development of the mind is to discern that as it actually is present. What is that as it actually is present?
maybe this?
"Herein, Bahiya, you should train yourself thus: 'In the seen will be merely what is seen; in the heard will be merely what is heard; in the sensed will be merely what is sensed; in the cognized will be merely what is cognized.' In this way you should train yourself, Bahiya.

"When, Bahiya, for you in the seen is merely what is seen... in the cognized is merely what is cognized, then, Bahiya, you will not be 'with that.' When, Bahiya, you are not 'with that,' then, Bahiya, you will not be 'in that.' When, Bahiya, you are not 'in that,' then, Bahiya, you will be neither here nor beyond nor in between the two. Just this is the end of suffering."
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .irel.html
สัพเพ สัตตา สุขีตา โหนตุ

the mountain may be heavy in and of itself, but if you're not trying to carry it it's not heavy to you- Ajaan Suwat
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tiltbillings
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Re: Luminious mind

Post by tiltbillings »

Sherab wrote:"Luminous, monks, is the mind. And it is defiled by incoming defilements."
"Luminous, monks, is the mind. And it is freed from incoming defilements."
"Luminous, monks, is the mind. And it is defiled by incoming defilements. The uninstructed run-of-the-mill person doesn't discern that as it actually is present, which is why I tell you that -- for the uninstructed run-of-the-mill person -- there is no development of the mind."
"Luminous, monks, is the mind. And it is freed from incoming defilements. The well-instructed noble disciple discerns that as it actually is present, which is why I tell you that -- for the well-instructed noble disciple -- there is development of the mind."

Anguttara Nikaya I.49-52
Pabhassara Suttas

The above verses seem to say that the key to development of the mind is to discern that as it actually is present. What is that as it actually is present?
Be very, very careful in reading this text. Do we read "the mind" - citta - as refering to some sort of existing thing - the mind?
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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Sherab
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Re: Luminious mind

Post by Sherab »

tiltbillings wrote:Be very, very careful in reading this text. Do we read "the mind" - citta - as refering to some sort of existing thing - the mind?
The mind that is to be developed has to refer to the dependently arisen mind. That development somehow seems to be connected with discenment of "that as it actually is present" and somehow has something to do with the "luminous" aspect of the mind. That's how it seems to me.
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tiltbillings
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Re: Luminious mind

Post by tiltbillings »

Sherab wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:Be very, very careful in reading this text. Do we read "the mind" - citta - as refering to some sort of existing thing - the mind?
The mind that is to be developed has to refer to the dependently arisen mind. That development somehow seems to be connected with discenment of "that as it actually is present" and somehow has something to do with the "luminous" aspect of the mind. That's how it seems to me.
One might need to be careful about reading too much into "luminous" as well.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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Sherab
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Re: Luminious mind

Post by Sherab »

jcsuperstar wrote:
Sherab wrote:"

The above verses seem to say that the key to development of the mind is to discern that as it actually is present. What is that as it actually is present?
maybe this?
"Herein, Bahiya, you should train yourself thus: 'In the seen will be merely what is seen; in the heard will be merely what is heard; in the sensed will be merely what is sensed; in the cognized will be merely what is cognized.' In this way you should train yourself, Bahiya.

"When, Bahiya, for you in the seen is merely what is seen... in the cognized is merely what is cognized, then, Bahiya, you will not be 'with that.' When, Bahiya, you are not 'with that,' then, Bahiya, you will not be 'in that.' When, Bahiya, you are not 'in that,' then, Bahiya, you will be neither here nor beyond nor in between the two. Just this is the end of suffering."
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .irel.html
Thanks for the link.

In there was this utterance by the Buddha:

"Where neither water nor yet earth
Nor fire nor air gain a foothold,
There gleam no stars, no sun sheds light,
There shines no moon, yet there no darkness reigns.

When a sage, a brahman, has come to know this
For himself through his own wisdom,
Then he is freed from form and formless.
Freed from pleasure and from pain."


It seems to me that the verses are pointing to the "that as it actually is present".
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Sherab
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Re: Luminious mind

Post by Sherab »

tiltbillings wrote:
Sherab wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:Be very, very careful in reading this text. Do we read "the mind" - citta - as refering to some sort of existing thing - the mind?
The mind that is to be developed has to refer to the dependently arisen mind. That development somehow seems to be connected with discenment of "that as it actually is present" and somehow has something to do with the "luminous" aspect of the mind. That's how it seems to me.
One might need to be careful about reading too much into "luminous" as well.
Could you elaborate?
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tiltbillings
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Re: Luminious mind

Post by tiltbillings »

Sherab wrote:Could you elaborate?
What do you think lumimous means here?
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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Sherab
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Re: Luminious mind

Post by Sherab »

tiltbillings wrote:
Sherab wrote:Could you elaborate?
What do you think lumimous means here?
Unclouded. Now could you elaborate on your previous post?
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Re: Luminious mind

Post by Mawkish1983 »

Main Entry: lu·mi·nous
Pronunciation: \ˈlü-mə-nəs\
Function: adjective
Etymology: Middle English, from Latin luminosus, from lumin-, lumen
Date: 15th century

1 a : emitting or reflecting usually steady, suffused, or glowing light b : of or relating to light or to luminous flux
2 : bathed in or exposed to steady light <luminous with sunlight>
3 : clear, enlightening
4 : shining, illustrious <a luminous film star> <a luminous performance>
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/luminous" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

So I take luminous mind to be the sort of citta leading to enlightenment, not some aggregate of a self, conventional or elsewise.
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tiltbillings
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Re: Luminious mind

Post by tiltbillings »

Sherab wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:
Sherab wrote:Could you elaborate?
What do you think lumimous means here?
Unclouded. Now could you elaborate on your previous post?
When consciousness first arises, the first moments of it in a sense are free of the conditioning that comes storming in as it goes through it process of rising and falling. It is that first bit that is cultivated via mindfulness and concentration practice. Anything else starts getting into a metaphysics that the Buddha rejected.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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Sherab
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Re: Luminious mind

Post by Sherab »

tiltbillings wrote:When consciousness first arises, the first moments of it in a sense are free of the conditioning that comes storming in as it goes through it process of rising and falling. It is that first bit that is cultivated via mindfulness and concentration practice. Anything else starts getting into a metaphysics that the Buddha rejected.
How does you post apply to a mental consciousness that does not arise in dependent on a sense consciousness?
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tiltbillings
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Re: Luminious mind

Post by tiltbillings »

Sherab wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:When consciousness first arises, the first moments of it in a sense are free of the conditioning that comes storming in as it goes through it process of rising and falling. It is that first bit that is cultivated via mindfulness and concentration practice. Anything else starts getting into a metaphysics that the Buddha rejected.
How does you post apply to a mental consciousness that does not arise in dependent on a sense consciousness?
Please clarify. Better that I do not assume what you are say.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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Sherab
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Re: Luminious mind

Post by Sherab »

tiltbillings wrote:
Sherab wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:When consciousness first arises, the first moments of it in a sense are free of the conditioning that comes storming in as it goes through it process of rising and falling. It is that first bit that is cultivated via mindfulness and concentration practice. Anything else starts getting into a metaphysics that the Buddha rejected.
How does you post apply to a mental consciousness that does not arise in dependent on a sense consciousness?
Please clarify. Better that I do not assume what you are say.
Sense consciousness is free from imputations. Therefore it is possible for the first moment of a mental consciousness arising in dependence on a sense consciousness to be free of imputations. However, mental consciousness that does arise in dependence on a mental consciousness will have to do so on a previous moment of mental consciousness. If the previous moment of that mental consciousness is free of imputations, your post would apply. So the question in my mind is under what other circumstances can the "first" moment of a mental consciousness be free from imputations? (Note: I prefer "imputations" over "conditioning" because I think no phenomena of consciousness is unconditoned. Correct me if I am wrong.)
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tiltbillings
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Re: Luminious mind

Post by tiltbillings »

Sherab wrote: Sense consciousness is free from imputations. Therefore it is possible for the first moment of a mental consciousness arising in dependence on a sense consciousness to be free of imputations. However, mental consciousness that does arise in dependence on a mental consciousness will have to do so on a previous moment of mental consciousness. If the previous moment of that mental consciousness is free of imputations, your post would apply. So the question in my mind is under what other circumstances can the "first" moment of a mental consciousness be free from imputations? (Note: I prefer "imputations" over "conditioning" because I think no phenomena of consciousness is unconditoned. Correct me if I am wrong.)
imputations
That's coming out of a Tibetan stand point. Since this is a Theravadin forum I am inclined towards Pali/Theravadin sources, which tend to see things a bit differently.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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