When Karma strikes back...

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
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Admiral
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When Karma strikes back...

Post by Admiral »

Hi there (:

There's something I'd like to ask you.
Let's imagine somebody that killed and lied a lot in its past lives.
When karma will strike him back, will it be "dangerous" for the people around him, his family, etc...?

I mean : is karma totally personal or can it affect the people around?
When a lot of people die in a plane crash, is this because of the bad karma of one, or are they all paying for their past mistakes?

:namaste:
Mawkish1983
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Re: When Kharma strikes back...

Post by Mawkish1983 »

'Strike back'?

Edit: Look, every volitional action has a consequence, every cause has an effect. It's not about reward and punishment.
beeblebrox
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Re: When Kharma strikes back...

Post by beeblebrox »

I thought it was a clever title. :tongue:

Yes, I believe that what one does ends up affecting everyone. If it's just viewed as a personal thing, then I think that would go against the idea of anatta (not-self). That's the way I understand it. BUT, worry about your own kamma (current), not other people's. The total workings of kamma are impossible to contemplate, according to the Buddha.
Last edited by beeblebrox on Thu Jul 01, 2010 3:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Admiral
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Re: When Kharma strikes back...

Post by Admiral »

Mawkish1983 wrote:'Strike back'?

Edit: Look, every volitional action has a consequence, every cause has an effect. It's not about reward and punishment.
I'm sorry, my english isn't really good, I didn't want to talk about punishment.
But I'm sure you caught what I meant... :smile:
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bodom
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Re: When Kharma strikes back...

Post by bodom »

beeblebrox wrote:I thought it was a clever title.
I thought it was the title of a new Star Wars movie. :tongue:
The total workings of kamma are impossible to contemplate, according to the Buddha.


:goodpost:
"'I am the owner of my actions (kamma), heir to my actions, born of my actions, related through my actions, and have my actions as my arbitrator. Whatever I do, for good or for evil, to that will I fall heir'... — AN 5.57


:anjali:
Liberation is the inevitable fruit of the path and is bound to blossom forth when there is steady and persistent practice. The only requirements for reaching the final goal are two: to start and to continue. If these requirements are met there is no doubt the goal will be attained. This is the Dhamma, the undeviating law.

- BB
Mawkish1983
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Re: When Kharma strikes back...

Post by Mawkish1983 »

beeblebrox wrote:The total workings of kamma are impossible to contemplate, according to the Buddha.
:thumbsup:
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Admiral
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Re: When Kharma strikes back...

Post by Admiral »

beeblebrox wrote:Yes, I believe that what one does ends up affecting everyone. If it's just viewed as a personal thing, then I think that would go against the idea of anatta (not-self). BUT, worry about your own kamma (current), not other people's. The total workings of kamma are impossible to contemplate, according to the Buddha. That's the way I understand it.
:coffee:

Thanks for the answer :)
To be honest, it's more about my own kamma than other people's. I don't want anyone to suffer because of the mistakes I did in my past lives ! :|
Mawkish1983
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Re: When Kharma strikes back...

Post by Mawkish1983 »

Admiral wrote:I'm sorry, my english isn't really good, I didn't want to talk about punishment.
But I'm sure you caught what I meant... :smile:
I think your English is fine :). I don't know if you were conflating kamma with punishment or not, but I thought I'd try to clarify, just in case :).
beeblebrox
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Re: When Kharma strikes back...

Post by beeblebrox »

Admiral wrote:To be honest, it's more about my own kamma than other people's. I don't want anyone to suffer because of the mistakes I did in my past lives ! :|
Unfortunately, there's not much you can do about it, either way (whether it affects just you, or other people are included). Just don't try to identify yourself with the bad actions too much (anatta), and continue to do your best in making the good kamma. That's what I would do.
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Admiral
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Re: When Kharma strikes back...

Post by Admiral »

Mawkish1983 wrote:I think your English is fine :). I don't know if you were conflating kamma with punishment or not, but I thought I'd try to clarify, just in case :).
Oh, thanks :) it's not the case, I assure you of it ;)
beeblebrox wrote:Unfortunately, there's not much you can do about it, either way (whether it affects just you, or other people are included). Just don't try to identify yourself with the bad actions too much (anatta), and continue to do your best in making the good kamma. That's what I would do.
Thanks for the advice. :)
So, I'll do my best to not get obsessed with the consequences of my bad kamma but instead increase my good kamma !
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Re: When Kharma strikes back...

Post by Sekha »

AN 1.308
Bhikkhus, a certain person is born in the world for the harm, bad luck and unpleasantness of many gods and men. Who is it? It is one with wrong and perverted view. He pulls out many from right view and establishes them in wrong view. He is born in the world for the harm, bad luck and unpleasantness of many gods and men.
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OcTavO
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Re: When Kharma strikes back...

Post by OcTavO »

Admiral, this may be an interesting read for you: http://www.buddhanet.net/pdf_file/volition.pdf

As other have mentioned, the Buddha's advice was to not get too tied up in trying to determine the workings of Kamma...
"The [precise working out of the] results of kamma is an unconjecturable that is not to be conjectured about, that would bring madness & vexation to anyone who conjectured about it."
~AN 4.77
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IanAnd
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Re: When Kharma strikes back...

Post by IanAnd »

Admiral wrote: Let's imagine somebody that killed and lied a lot in its past lives.
When karma will strike him back, will it be "dangerous" for the people around him, his family, etc...?

I mean : is karma totally personal or can it affect the people around?
When a lot of people die in a plane crash, is this because of the bad karma of one, or are they all paying for their past mistakes?
From where, in heaven's sake, are you coming up with these crazy assumptions? Who or what has influenced your thinking such that you would even entertain asking a question in this manner?

Apparently, you are confused as to the definition of kamma that the Buddha used. In other words, your understanding of it is insufficient enough to ask a reasonable and cogent question about it without resorting to deluded thinking patterns which must have been inculcated in you from some outside source. The question I'm asking is: from where did these delusional thinking patterns that you are displaying arise? By asking this question, which I intend that you personally contemplate, it is meant to be self-reflective rather than to be argumentative or create controversy. In other words, it would be of benefit for you to examine your own thought processes that allowed such thoughts to arise within you, thus muddying your field of vision.

Begin here in order to understand the correct definition of kamma and its use:
The Buddha's definition of kamma is: "It is volition, monks, that I declare to be kamma. Having willed, one performs an action by body, speech, or mind." (AN 6.63)

The question you asked, highlighted above, presumes some sort of metaphysical transference. This is not possible. Unless one's thinking is deluded.

In other words, what on earth would have you thinking that one person's unwholesomeness or defiled thinking and actions would somehow invisibly affect the path of other people? What makes you think that there is a quid pro quo aspect to kamma? That is, other than having made the (unintended) mistake by getting on the wrong plane at the wrong time, to use the example given above?
Last edited by IanAnd on Thu Jul 01, 2010 6:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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beeblebrox
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Re: When Kharma strikes back...

Post by beeblebrox »

IanAnd wrote:Who or what has influenced your thinking such that you would even entertain asking a question in this manner?
I think it's a very common confusion. :tongue: (You reap what you sow, what goes around comes around, or "Karma".) It used to get on my nerves, but now I just try to prod them in the right direction.
In other words, what on earth would have you thinking that one person's unwholesomeness or defiled thinking and actions would somehow invisibly affect the path of other people?
I have some problems with this statement. It seems to be based on the idea of a personal identity (that is self-contained). The kamma that were done in the past of course affects other people's (future) paths.

When the conditions are right, the bad kamma will give bad fruits... where and when these will arise, who knows? But, at the very least, someone (as a different bundle of aggregates) down the line will experience them that's for sure. How he deals with them is a different story. That's the way I understand it.
What makes you think that there is a quid pro quo aspect to kamma? That is, other than having made the (unintended) mistake by getting on the wrong plane at the wrong time, to use the example given above?
This is a good point. Kamma is not a "this for that" thing with a one-for-one relation, so it makes the question about getting on the wrong plane seem like it's irrelevant to a discussion about kamma.
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bodom
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Re: When Kharma strikes back...

Post by bodom »

Admiral

Whats wrong with you? How dare you ask such a crazy, delusional question? You must be outta your mind. :tongue:

Dont worry, there was nothing wrong with asking this question. How are you to understand without asking? Kamma is complex and needs to be understood. It is good to ask questions.

:anjali:
Liberation is the inevitable fruit of the path and is bound to blossom forth when there is steady and persistent practice. The only requirements for reaching the final goal are two: to start and to continue. If these requirements are met there is no doubt the goal will be attained. This is the Dhamma, the undeviating law.

- BB
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