Freawaru wrote:Seriously, except for some Theravada *forums* I have never known anyone who believes that the elements construct the biological body.... I will turn this around. Please provide prove (suttic, meditational, rational or otherwise) stating that the gross body refers to the biological one!
Sylvester wrote:I'm just wondering if you may be familiar with Tse-fu Kuan's "Mindfulness in Early Buddhism"? He has some really interesting comments on the Uppatipatika Sutta, SN 48.40 which seems to be the favourite resort for the proponents of cessation of the pleasure faculty in 3rd Jhana. He quite rightly points out that that sutta is very problematic and somewhat inconsistent with the sutta treatment of Jhana factors on several scores.
Sylvester wrote:By a coincidence, the schema in the Uppatipatika Sutta mirrors the Dhammasangini's enumeration of dhammas in the Rupa Jhanas - which text influenced what text?
Brizzy wrote:What is one thing that the Buddha continuously asked his followers to practice? - Mindfulness of Body.
What is the most common reference to meditation the Buddha makes? - Jhana.
Now without being a genius, would'nt the jhana taught by the Buddha be the actual means for the the fulfillment of Mindfulness of Body.
Why would the Buddha exhort his followers to practice a meditation that cut off the tie between body & mind?
Would'nt he rather teach a means of experiencing a calmed body with a perfectly calm mind?
Modus.Ponens wrote:Regarding deep jhana, I see no more than indirect sugestions that deep (visuddhimagga) jhana is the jhana that the Buddha teached. In this subject, MN111 is a direct proof of the contrary as is also other suttas quoted in the essay.
Modus.Ponens wrote:He permeates & pervades, suffuses & fills this very body with the rapture & pleasure born of composure. There is nothing of his entire body unpervaded by rapture & pleasure born of composure.
Yundi wrote:A similie is that of watering a garden. When watering a garden, there is water (citta), there is holding the hose in the appropriate direction (vitakka) and there is sustaining (vicara) the direction of the hose & the water flow.
This is watering a garden.
Yundi wrote:Jhana is the same. The mind has ekkagattacitta or one-pointed mind. The mind is stuck on the arisien nimitta & factors of jhana. Mind awareness is no longer within the body (kayanupassana) but the body receives the flowing benefits of jhana.
But the mind has gone beyong being aware of this. The mind is elsewhere.
Sylvester wrote:Dear Geoff
Can we be certain that "kaya" may not be a Pali idiom for something in addition to the physical kaya? The usage of "kaya" in the Susima Sutta, SN 12.70, where the released-both-ways arahants "dwell touching with their kaya the formless attainments" does open up a clear and distinct possibility that "kaya" (at least in this context) has nothing to do with the rupa kaya.
Kāyesu kāyaññatarāhaṃ, bhikkhave, evaṃ vadāmi yadidaṃ – assāsapassāsā
I tell you, monks, that this — the in-&-out breath — is classed as a body among bodies
Ñāṇa wrote:Actually the simile in question, pertaining to the first jhāna, is the following:
Just as if a skilled bathman or bathman's apprentice would pour bath powder into a brass basin and knead it together, sprinkling it again & again with water, so that his ball of bath powder — saturated, moisture-laden, permeated within & without — would nevertheless not drip; even so, the monk permeates... this very body with the rapture & pleasure born of withdrawal. There is nothing of his entire body unpervaded by rapture & pleasure born from withdrawal.
Ñāṇa wrote:What you are describing is a case of being "stuck internally" (MN 138). Such a description of jhāna as sammāsamādhi cannot be sustained by a close reading of the sutta-s.
Ñāṇa wrote: 1st jhāna:
• pain faculty ceases (dukkhindriya) [SN 48.40] which is any physical pain, physical discomfort born of body-contact to be experienced as pain and discomfort [SN 48.37]
Sylvester wrote:I think, that if we allow for the possibility that "kāyikañca vedana" actually refers to feelings born at any of the 6 ayatanas, many of the difficulties posed by the Uppapatika Sutta, SN 40.10 would disappear. Otherwise, it would really be difficult to reconcile the persistance of the "bodily" equanimity feeling in the formless attainment with how the formless attainments are understood.
Yundi wrote:However, if the pain faculty ceases, then awareness of the body has ceased, showing the awareness of the physical body ends in jhana.
Yundi wrote:If a practitioner sits in jhana for many hours, do you think they would physical emerge from that jhana without any stiffness in their legs?
Yundi wrote:Or when Sariputta was asborbed in jhana and the Yakka dealt him a blow on the head, why did he not feel this in meditation but felt a headache upon emerging?
Yundi wrote:I have little interest in your second hand scholarship, where you have not demonstrated to date knowledge of Pali.
Ñāṇa wrote:In that case, here's an idea: don't read my posts.
Ñāṇa wrote: AN 9.37
Having attained the fourth absorption, inhalation and exhalation have ceased [stilled, tranquilised].
Ñāṇa wrote:Also, if we look at some discourses where the reference is specifically to the first satipaṭṭhāna, then it becomes clear that the meaning of kāya in the context of jhāna doesn't entail interpreting it in terms of nāmakāya, and in fact to interpret it as nāmakāya is completely uncalled for. As an example, MN 125:
Ñāṇa wrote:Your statement entails that at any time one isn't experiencing physical pain then awareness of the body has ceased.
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