Educate me. Are you saying that in Theravada, a mind = a consciousness at every moment?tiltbillings wrote:Since this is in the General Theravada discussion section, let us keep this within a Theravadin framework, tying it to texts when possible.Sherab wrote: Within a mind, there are different consciousness.
Luminious mind
Re: Luminious mind
Re: Luminious mind
There is no difference between "mind" and "consciousness".
Applying the term "mind": Without object there is no "mind";
applying the term "consciousness": Without "being conscious of [an object]" there is no "consciousness".
Referring to the 12 links of DO:
"Mind" or "consciousness" are effected by ignorance and sankhara.
Kind regards
Applying the term "mind": Without object there is no "mind";
applying the term "consciousness": Without "being conscious of [an object]" there is no "consciousness".
Referring to the 12 links of DO:
"Mind" or "consciousness" are effected by ignorance and sankhara.
Kind regards
Re: Luminious mind
If you say "Within a mind, there are different consciousness." this is postulating different entities and reification of what you call "mind" as a separate entity.
Otherwise you would have to say something like "the meaning of 'mind' comprises/covers 'different consciousness'"
kind regards
Otherwise you would have to say something like "the meaning of 'mind' comprises/covers 'different consciousness'"
kind regards
Re: Luminious mind
Perhaps you could answer the question I asked of Tiltbillings earlier:TMingyur wrote:If you say "Within a mind, there are different consciousness." this is postulating different entities and reification of what you call "mind" as a separate entity.
Otherwise you would have to say something like "the meaning of 'mind' comprises/covers 'different consciousness'"
kind regards
Are you saying that in Theravada, a mind = a consciousness at every moment?
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Re: Luminious mind
What do you mean by "a mind?"Sherab wrote:Perhaps you could answer the question I asked of Tiltbillings earlier:TMingyur wrote:If you say "Within a mind, there are different consciousness." this is postulating different entities and reification of what you call "mind" as a separate entity.
Otherwise you would have to say something like "the meaning of 'mind' comprises/covers 'different consciousness'"
kind regards
Are you saying that in Theravada, a mind = a consciousness at every moment?
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.
“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.
“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
Re: Luminious mind
A complex of various consciousness. Now could you answer my earlier question?tiltbillings wrote:What do you mean by "a mind?"Sherab wrote:Perhaps you could answer the question I asked of Tiltbillings earlier:TMingyur wrote:If you say "Within a mind, there are different consciousness." this is postulating different entities and reification of what you call "mind" as a separate entity.
Otherwise you would have to say something like "the meaning of 'mind' comprises/covers 'different consciousness'"
kind regards
Are you saying that in Theravada, a mind = a consciousness at every moment?
- retrofuturist
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Re: Luminious mind
Greetings Sherab,
Metta,
Retro.
Eye-consciousness, ear-consciousness, nose-consciousness, body-consciousness, tongue-consciousness and mind-consciousness?Sherab wrote:A complex of various consciousness.
Metta,
Retro.
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
Re: Luminious mind
Yes, at the very least, I think.retrofuturist wrote:Greetings Sherab,
Eye-consciousness, ear-consciousness, nose-consciousness, body-consciousness, tongue-consciousness and mind-consciousness?Sherab wrote:A complex of various consciousness.
Metta,
Retro.
Re: Luminious mind
I cannot speak on behalf of Theravada. But what I am actually saying is that a valid assertion is based on direct perception.Sherab wrote:Perhaps you could answer the question I asked of Tiltbillings earlier:TMingyur wrote:If you say "Within a mind, there are different consciousness." this is postulating different entities and reification of what you call "mind" as a separate entity.
Otherwise you would have to say something like "the meaning of 'mind' comprises/covers 'different consciousness'"
kind regards
Are you saying that in Theravada, a mind = a consciousness at every moment?
Now the question is: What can be directly perceived?
Can "a mind" other than consciousness be perceived?
If "no", why assert "a mind" other than consciousness.
If "yes", can it be perceived through "being conscious" of it or not.
----If "yes", on what grounds is it asserted to be different from consciousness?
----If "no", why assert "a mind" at all?
Kind regards
Re: Luminious mind
Because we need words/terms in order to communicate.TMingyur wrote:I cannot speak on behalf of Theravada. But what I am actually saying is that a valid assertion is based on direct perception.Sherab wrote:Perhaps you could answer the question I asked of Tiltbillings earlier:TMingyur wrote:If you say "Within a mind, there are different consciousness." this is postulating different entities and reification of what you call "mind" as a separate entity.
Otherwise you would have to say something like "the meaning of 'mind' comprises/covers 'different consciousness'"
kind regards
Are you saying that in Theravada, a mind = a consciousness at every moment?
Now the question is: What can be directly perceived?
Can "a mind" other than consciousness be perceived?
If "no", why assert "a mind" other than consciousness.
If "yes", can it be perceived through "being conscious" of it or not.
----If "yes", on what grounds is it asserted to be different from consciousness?
----If "no", why assert "a mind" at all?
Kind regards
I have given the meaning of "mind" as I understand it namely that it is a complex of various consciousness.
However you said earlier "If you say "Within a mind, there are different consciousness." this is postulating different entities and reification of what you call "mind" as a separate entity." This seemed to imply to me that you are asserting that a mind = a consciousness at every moment. If you did not mean this, could you elaborate on what you actually meant?
Re: Luminious mind
Now you are referring to meaning only?Sherab wrote:Because we need words/terms in order to communicate.
This did not merely imply meaning:
Sherab wrote:Within a mind, there are different consciousness.
A "meaning complex"? Well yes but even in that it is not different from "consciousness" because "consciousness" are differentiated according to some linguistic conventions.Sherab wrote: I have given the meaning of "mind" as I understand it namely that it is a complex of various consciousness.
Based on what I said before I can only say that I can be "conscious" of "being conscious of", i.e. I can directly perceive my "being conscious of" or - a synonym - I can be aware of "being aware of", I can be aware of "being conscious of", I can be conscious of "being aware of". This "being aware of" or "being conscious of" is synonym to "mind" per linguistic convention because I can only perceive what I can perceive. I can conceptualize/think of/fantasize phenomena beyond that but I would not claim these to be valid.Sherab wrote: This seemed to imply to me that you are asserting that a mind = a consciousness at every moment. If you did not mean this, could you elaborate on what you actually meant?
Kind regards
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Re: Luminious mind
Could I suggest maybe we try to use the pali terms so we all know what is actually being discussed? Maybe I'm a little slow this morning, but I don't know what 'mind' we are actually discussing. Using the Pali words untranslated might help.
Just a thought
Just a thought
Re: Luminious mind
I was referring to citta (in my exchanges with TMingyur)Mawkish1983 wrote:Could I suggest maybe we try to use the pali terms so we all know what is actually being discussed? Maybe I'm a little slow this morning, but I don't know what 'mind' we are actually discussing. Using the Pali words untranslated might help.
Just a thought
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Re: Luminious mind
Greetings Sherab,
Metta,
Retro.
Presumably the Sutta meaning, rather than the more nuanced Abhidhamma definition of the term?Sherab wrote:I was referring to citta (in my exchanges with TMingyur)
Metta,
Retro.
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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Re: Luminious mind
So is the 'luminous mind' you're asking about bodhicitta? If not, what word has been translated to 'luminous'? I'm asking so I can read around a bit and maybe (just maybe) usefully contribute to this discussion.