A sotapanna

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Re: A sotapanna

Postby appicchato » Sun Jul 04, 2010 3:41 am

Whatever


Says it all...
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Re: A sotapanna

Postby Virgo » Sun Jul 04, 2010 3:49 am

appicchato wrote:
Whatever


Says it all...

Bhante you really shouldn't be so judgemental (if you are being judgemental that is. I may have misinterpreted your statement and if so I apologize).

Kevin
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Re: A sotapanna

Postby mikenz66 » Sun Jul 04, 2010 3:54 am

Hi Kevin,
Virgo wrote:Perhaps announcing it on the internet is a bit "over the top" in some ways but again, it is not like I have a group of close Buddhist friends or Theravada Buddhists or even a teacher nearby that I can express this with, and online communities have been my mainstay in Buddhism for long periods of time aside from when I lived in a Buddhist temple in America and when I lived in Thailand for a few months.

I'm puzzled why you chose to make your announcement on Dhamma Wheel, rather than on Dhamma Study Group, where several of the Khun Sujin students that you have a lot in common with post and read.

Best Wishes and Metta
Mike
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Re: A sotapanna

Postby Virgo » Sun Jul 04, 2010 4:05 am

mikenz66 wrote:Hi Kevin,
Virgo wrote:Perhaps announcing it on the internet is a bit "over the top" in some ways but again, it is not like I have a group of close Buddhist friends or Theravada Buddhists or even a teacher nearby that I can express this with, and online communities have been my mainstay in Buddhism for long periods of time aside from when I lived in a Buddhist temple in America and when I lived in Thailand for a few months.

I'm puzzled why you chose to make your announcement on Dhamma Wheel, rather than on Dhamma Study Group, where several of the Khun Sujin students that you have a lot in common with post and read.

Best Wishes and Metta
Mike

Hi Mike :)

Because word gets around and it would get back around to here where I would just have to explain it all over again and clear up misconceptions. The people over at that other list don't have a lot of misconceptions.

Kevin
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Re: A sotapanna

Postby tiltbillings » Sun Jul 04, 2010 4:28 am

Virgo wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:
Virgo wrote:You can think whatever you like Tilt. A lot of it is your own projection I think. I don't know how you even begin to think you know my mind state or what runs through it.
No projections, and I make no claim to know your mind. All I know is what you tell us here, and one of those things is that you think you are something special: "It is not as easy as you think being totally different from every one else."

You are the one here who has made a claim of being extraordinary, of belonging to an elite group that should be gifted with praise and honor, and you are the one accepting those gifts of praise - in other words, a claim that is driven by the 8 winds. A claim driven, by your account, by discomfort, which is to say driven by aversion to the discomfort since you acted to get rid of it, and a claim that smacks of self-identity and what looks like conceit: "I am a sotapanna."

Really, why would anyone feel a need to make such a claim of themselves, of wanting to be seen as - to use your words -"being totally different from every one else" other than that is exactly how they want to be seen, as unique, as something special, someone to be looked up to? What else would be the result of such a claim?

A sotapanna still has conceit.
Which is to say that a sotapanna - according to you - may want to be gifted with the praise of being someone unique. A sotapanna, however, from my experiences, would also have the wisdom and the strength to not act on such an unskilful conceit, which is why I do not find your claim and your defense of it at all convincing.

Fine Tile. Whatever.

Kevin
Well. An admission that I am correct. Thank you and you are to commended for your honesty.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: A sotapanna

Postby tiltbillings » Sun Jul 04, 2010 4:54 am

mikenz66 wrote:Hi Kevin,
Virgo wrote:Perhaps announcing it on the internet is a bit "over the top" in some ways but again, it is not like I have a group of close Buddhist friends or Theravada Buddhists or even a teacher nearby that I can express this with, and online communities have been my mainstay in Buddhism for long periods of time aside from when I lived in a Buddhist temple in America and when I lived in Thailand for a few months.

I'm puzzled why you chose to make your announcement on Dhamma Wheel, rather than on Dhamma Study Group, where several of the Khun Sujin students that you have a lot in common with post and read.

Best Wishes and Metta
Mike
It is odd that he came out here rather than there and it would have been more appropriate given the general tendancy to a like-minded take on the Dhamma there. After all it was on that list that Kevin announced his grand intention of devoting his life to becoming a master of Pali so that he could accurately translate the whole of the Sutta Pitaka and all the commentaries.

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastu ... age/106970
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: A sotapanna

Postby Virgo » Sun Jul 04, 2010 4:55 am

tiltbillings wrote:
Well. An admission that I am correct. Thank you and you are to commended for your honesty.

Sorry, that is not what you got and I will not give that to you because it is not so.

Kevin
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Re: A sotapanna

Postby Virgo » Sun Jul 04, 2010 4:56 am

tiltbillings wrote:
mikenz66 wrote:Hi Kevin,
Virgo wrote:Perhaps announcing it on the internet is a bit "over the top" in some ways but again, it is not like I have a group of close Buddhist friends or Theravada Buddhists or even a teacher nearby that I can express this with, and online communities have been my mainstay in Buddhism for long periods of time aside from when I lived in a Buddhist temple in America and when I lived in Thailand for a few months.

I'm puzzled why you chose to make your announcement on Dhamma Wheel, rather than on Dhamma Study Group, where several of the Khun Sujin students that you have a lot in common with post and read.

Best Wishes and Metta
Mike
It is odd that he came out here rather than there and it would have been more appropriate given the general tendancy to a like-minded take on the Dhamma there. After all it was on that list that Kevin announced his grand intention of devoting his life to becoming a master of Pali so that he could accurately translate the whole of the Sutta Pitaka and all the commentaries.

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastu ... age/106970

You question my motivations, I won't go so low as to question yours.

Kevin
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Re: A sotapanna

Postby tiltbillings » Sun Jul 04, 2010 4:58 am

Virgo wrote:You question my motivations, I won't go so low as to question yours.

Kevin

I am not questioning youir motivations. Damdifino what they are, but I do question your actions which are out there for everyone to see.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: A sotapanna

Postby Virgo » Sun Jul 04, 2010 5:01 am

tiltbillings wrote:
Virgo wrote:You question my motivations, I won't go so low as to question yours.

Kevin

I am not questioning youir motivations. Damdifino what they are, but I do question your actions which are out there for everyone to see.


Although we have differences of opinion Tilt, I wish that you will always be well and happy.
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Re: A sotapanna

Postby tiltbillings » Sun Jul 04, 2010 5:11 am

Virgo wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:
Virgo wrote:You question my motivations, I won't go so low as to question yours.

Kevin

I am not questioning youir motivations. Damdifino what they are, but I do question your actions which are out there for everyone to see.


Although we have differences of opinion Tilt, I wish that you will always be well and happy.
That is very sweet of you.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: A sotapanna

Postby tiltbillings » Sun Jul 04, 2010 5:22 am

To all and sundry,

For all the stuff that has been said above:

After only a year and a half of practice at Wat Ba Pong, one American asked and received permission to travel and study with other Thai and Burmese teachers. A year or two later, he returned full of tales of his travels, of many months of extraordinary and intensive practice and of a number of remarkable experiences. . . .
Then the Western monk went to the cottage of Achaan Sumedho, the senior Western disciple of Achaan Chah, and told all his stories and adventures, his new understandings and great insights into practice. Sumedho listened in silence and prepared afternoon tea from the roots of certain forest plants. When the stories were completed and the insights recounted, Sumedho smiled and said, "Ah, how wonderful. Something else to let go of." Only that.
For all that has been said here, the best advice from an Ariya. Only that.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: A sotapanna

Postby Guy » Sun Jul 04, 2010 6:11 am

How can we know Sumedho is an Ariya?
Four types of letting go:

1) Giving; expecting nothing back in return
2) Throwing things away
3) Contentment; wanting to be here, not wanting to be anywhere else
4) "Teflon Mind"; having a mind which doesn't accumulate things

- Ajahn Brahm
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Re: A sotapanna

Postby tiltbillings » Sun Jul 04, 2010 6:51 am

Guy wrote:How can we know Sumedho is an Ariya?
How do we know? We do not, but having spent some time with him in Thailand and based upon what other who know him very well have said, it is a far better bet than a wan self proclamation.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: A sotapanna

Postby Guy » Sun Jul 04, 2010 7:15 am

Yeah, personally I am inclined to believe he probably is because of the confidence and wisdom he conveys in his talks that I have listened to online. I know that confidence is not a sign of enlightnment in itself and wisdom (or at least the appearance of wisdom) can be borrowed. So, I don't really have enough criteria to go by, but he appears to me as "knowing (from experience) what he's talking about".
Four types of letting go:

1) Giving; expecting nothing back in return
2) Throwing things away
3) Contentment; wanting to be here, not wanting to be anywhere else
4) "Teflon Mind"; having a mind which doesn't accumulate things

- Ajahn Brahm
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Re: A sotapanna

Postby Goedert » Sun Jul 04, 2010 2:14 pm

Friends,

Stream-winner is possible today... The eye of the dhamma.

Let our friend share his happiness with us, if he is a sotapana or not, the time will show him. If he claimed to be an angami or an arahat some could ask him to do a demonstration of psychic power, as Maha Kassapa did with Ananda in the First Concil....

This kind of thing is a useless discussion in internet.

Take care friends.
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Re: A sotapanna

Postby Virgo » Sun Jul 04, 2010 4:42 pm

A note on the attainment of nibbana: when one attains the first stage (sotapanna) the mind only contacts nibbana for three cittas (one path and two fruit). This experience is so extremely brief and lightning fast. It is said that there are tons of mind moments in a single blink of an eye. The thinking process actually takes many cittas (mind moments), many more than three. The result is that when one experiences nibbana, it is not like one is sits there and says, "Oh, so this is what nibbana is like". Instead it happens in a flash and one becomes aware that they experienced nibbana right after the fact. At that time one is also aware that the fetters are gone, and one lives without the fetters.

Kevin
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Re: A sotapanna

Postby zazang » Sun Jul 04, 2010 4:55 pm

Greetings VIrgo..More than anything else , I have a few questsions to ask :-

1. What technique have you been following ? ( during mediation and during day to day interaction with people )

2. You said that you were on the internet at that time. Were you meditating or just got lost in some deep thinking and suddenly the realization happened or anything else ?

Thank you

Metta
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Re: A sotapanna

Postby Virgo » Sun Jul 04, 2010 5:18 pm

zazang wrote:Greetings VIrgo..More than anything else , I have a few questsions to ask :-

1. What technique have you been following ? ( during mediation and during day to day interaction with people )

2. You said that you were on the internet at that time. Were you meditating or just got lost in some deep thinking and suddenly the realization happened or anything else ?

Thank you

Metta
zazang

Hi Zazang. As to 1) I have just tried to understand nama and rupa, as they really are with wisdom. This includes the six sense bases and so on.

As to 2) It does not matter what I was doing because insight can occur at any time. We have cittas all the time right? That means insight can occur at any time. I was simply using my computrer, not doing anything special.

I hope this helps.

K
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Re: A sotapanna

Postby tiltbillings » Sun Jul 04, 2010 5:47 pm

Goedert wrote:Friends,

Stream-winner is possible today... The eye of the dhamma.

Let our friend share his happiness with us, if he is a sotapana or not, the time will show him. If he claimed to be an angami or an arahat some could ask him to do a demonstration of psychic power, as Maha Kassapa did with Ananda in the First Concil....
It is not that simple. Our friend here claimed of himself a level of attainment that requires honor and respect that beyond of which we should extend to others naturally. He himself put it out there, offering no proof of its authenticity, on a public forum, making it a subject of discussion.

[This kind of thing is a useless discussion in internet.
What is useless is this claim. Its potential for harm is significant in that it can mislead others in any number of ways.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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