What's wrong with living a "normal" life?

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
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bodom
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Re: What's wrong with living a "normal" life?

Post by bodom »

Hi Mukunda

This comes at the end of the Sigalovada Sutta:
Who is fit to lead the household life, These six quarters he should salute. Who is wise and virtuous, Gentle and keen-witted, Humble and amenable, Such a one to honor may attain. Who is energetic and not indolent, In misfortune unshaken, Flawless in manner and intelligent, Such a one to honor may attain. Who is hospitable, and friendly, Liberal and unselfish, A guide, an instructor, a leader, Such a one to honor may attain. Generosity, sweet speech, Helpfulness to others, Impartiality to all, As the case demands. These four winning ways make the world go round, As the linchpin in a moving car. If these in the world exist not, Neither mother nor father will receive, Respect and honor from their children. Since these four winning ways The wise appraise in every way, To eminence they attain, And praise they rightly gain.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .nara.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

:anjali:
Liberation is the inevitable fruit of the path and is bound to blossom forth when there is steady and persistent practice. The only requirements for reaching the final goal are two: to start and to continue. If these requirements are met there is no doubt the goal will be attained. This is the Dhamma, the undeviating law.

- BB
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bodom
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Re: What's wrong with living a "normal" life?

Post by bodom »

Also from the Maha-mangala Sutta:
To have much learning, to be skillful in handicraft, well-trained in discipline, and to be of good speech — this is the greatest blessing.

To support mother and father, to cherish wife and children, and to be engaged in peaceful occupation — this is the greatest blessing.

To be generous in giving, to be righteous in conduct, to help one's relatives, and to be blameless in action — this is the greatest blessing.

To loathe more evil and abstain from it, to refrain from intoxicants, and to be steadfast in virtue — this is the greatest blessing.


Personally to me this sounds like praise for living a good and moral household life. The Buddha is not asking anyone to renounce these "great blessings."

But if you see it another way thats fine. Im not gonna debate with you. We will have to agree to disagree.

:anjali:
Last edited by bodom on Sun Jul 04, 2010 4:14 am, edited 2 times in total.
Liberation is the inevitable fruit of the path and is bound to blossom forth when there is steady and persistent practice. The only requirements for reaching the final goal are two: to start and to continue. If these requirements are met there is no doubt the goal will be attained. This is the Dhamma, the undeviating law.

- BB
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jcsuperstar
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Re: What's wrong with living a "normal" life?

Post by jcsuperstar »

i think it may be helpful to keep in mind that there are very few suttas in regards to householders in comparison to those aimed at monastics for the simple fact that it was monastics that remembered and kept the discourses. if it had been householders who took the initiative to remember and keep the discourses we'd probably have a different canon all together.
สัพเพ สัตตา สุขีตา โหนตุ

the mountain may be heavy in and of itself, but if you're not trying to carry it it's not heavy to you- Ajaan Suwat
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Re: What's wrong with living a "normal" life?

Post by Shonin »

Yeah, The Childcare Sutta, imagine it. :)
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Re: What's wrong with living a "normal" life?

Post by Sanghamitta »

jcsuperstar wrote:i think it may be helpful to keep in mind that there are very few suttas in regards to householders in comparison to those aimed at monastics for the simple fact that it was monastics that remembered and kept the discourses. if it had been householders who took the initiative to remember and keep the discourses we'd probably have a different canon all together.
A very good point indeed. What we have is a way of life preserved by ( mostly ) male monastics.
Which must be extremely useful if you are a male who intends to live as a monastic or like one.
For the majority of lay Buddhists who do not it is not necessarily useful to be reminded that we fail the gold standard of the Vinaya. It would be useful to have the positive values of the FIVE precepts held up as OUR gold standard and reinforced when questions are asked about ethics, sexuality, etc.
The kamma for most of us is how to make the best of the teachings for lay people in the situations that they are in. Not in setting comparisons with those who have adopted the life of a Sangha member.
The going for refuge is the door of entrance to the teachings of the Buddha.

Bhikku Bodhi.
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Dan74
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Re: What's wrong with living a "normal" life?

Post by Dan74 »

Sanghamitta wrote:
jcsuperstar wrote:i think it may be helpful to keep in mind that there are very few suttas in regards to householders in comparison to those aimed at monastics for the simple fact that it was monastics that remembered and kept the discourses. if it had been householders who took the initiative to remember and keep the discourses we'd probably have a different canon all together.
A very good point indeed. What we have is a way of life preserved by ( mostly ) male monastics.
Which must be extremely useful if you are a male who intends to live as a monastic or like one.
For the majority of lay Buddhists who do not it is not necessarily useful to be reminded that we fail the gold standard of the Vinaya. It would be useful to have the positive values of the FIVE precepts held up as OUR gold standard and reinforced when questions are asked about ethics, sexuality, etc.
The kamma for most of us is how to make the best of the teachings for lay people in the situations that they are in. Not in setting comparisons with those who have adopted the life of a Sangha member.
While I find this a reasonable perspective, it doesn't tell the whole story, IMO.

Some of those who have adopted the life of a Sangha member have also been householders, some with children and other responsibilities. Many have become monastics when the importance of renunciation and a complete dedication to practice became apparent to them, sometimes at the urging of a monastic.

So to extol the virtues of monastic life can actually be really helpful.

Of course it is a personal choice and it is unproductive to pass judgment. Some lay people also manage to renounce attachments in profound ways. But in whatever field, in order to succeed, one has to give it 100%. And typically (but not always) in lay life other priorities come first.
_/|\_
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Re: What's wrong with living a "normal" life?

Post by Sanghamitta »

In the THERAVADA tradition ( and as far as i am aware this is a Theravada forum ), living the life of a monastic precludes living the life of a householder with children. For a start there would be no children because no sex.
The going for refuge is the door of entrance to the teachings of the Buddha.

Bhikku Bodhi.
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jcsuperstar
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Re: What's wrong with living a "normal" life?

Post by jcsuperstar »

Sanghamitta wrote:In the THERAVADA tradition ( and as far as i am aware this is a Theravada forum ), living the life of a monastic precludes living the life of a householder with children. For a start there would be no children because no sex.
i think he meant before they ordained.
สัพเพ สัตตา สุขีตา โหนตุ

the mountain may be heavy in and of itself, but if you're not trying to carry it it's not heavy to you- Ajaan Suwat
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Re: What's wrong with living a "normal" life?

Post by Sanghamitta »

In which case they are lay people not monastics. A quick reading of my post would show that what I was saying is that it is not necessary or helpful to conflate the lives of 5 precept lay people with the lives led by Theravadin monastics.
That our aim as Theravadin lay people should be to take the 5 precepts as our basis for moral action, and on retreat to take the 8 precepts. Not attempt to live as monastics with the full Vinaya..
What goes on in other traditions is as far as I am concerned, for those other traditions.
The going for refuge is the door of entrance to the teachings of the Buddha.

Bhikku Bodhi.
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Re: What's wrong with living a "normal" life?

Post by Sanghamitta »

mettafuture wrote:What's wrong with going to school, getting a degree, working hard to earn a stable income, starting a family, enjoying the good, and learning how to tolerate the bad? Is the "worldly life" really that bad? This is the question that's been floating through my head lately.
This was the OP.
The going for refuge is the door of entrance to the teachings of the Buddha.

Bhikku Bodhi.
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Re: What's wrong with living a "normal" life?

Post by Hoo »

Let us not forget that without the Laity, there will likely be no Monastics in the mendicant tradition. In time, without support, the monastics will have to tend to all their own needs for food, shelter, robes, medicines, etc. Do they then become a kind of single-lay-persons, or celebate but very busy with wordly concerns, or some other hybrid that is not Theravada? Nothing wrong with that, IMO, but if the monastic community truly needs freedom from samsaric entanglements, the "normal life" folks would seem to be their only option in the USA.

It's just my opinion, but my "normal" life is part of what keeps the ordained going. In the USA, it's really hard to live a mendicant life - just about every town has laws against "begging" - aka alms rounds, etc., so lay support becomes even more important.

I think it pays to remember that the Sangha has extended the Buddha's teaching to us for two and a half thousand years. People with normal lives have fed them and supported them for the same period. (Ok, ok, there's been some kings, too, but kings are notoriously short-lived ;) )

There's nothing wrong with the normal life. It's what you do with it that counts.

Hoo
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bodom
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Re: What's wrong with living a "normal" life?

Post by bodom »

Monks, householders are very helpful to you, as they provide you with the requisites of robes, almsfood, lodgings, and medicine. And you, monks, are very helpful to householders, as you teach them the Dhamma admirable in the beginning, admirable in the middle, and admirable in the end, as you expound the holy life both in its particulars and in its essence, entirely complete, surpassingly pure. In this way the holy life is lived in mutual dependence, for the purpose of crossing over the flood, for making a right end to suffering and stress. Householders & the homeless in mutual dependence both reach the true Dhamma: the unsurpassed safety from bondage. From householders, the homeless receive requisites: robes, lodgings, protection from inclemencies. While in dependence on those well-gone, home-loving householders have conviction in arahants of noble discernment, absorbed in jhana. Having practiced the Dhamma here — the path leading to good destinations — delighting in the deva world, Iti 107
:anjali:
Liberation is the inevitable fruit of the path and is bound to blossom forth when there is steady and persistent practice. The only requirements for reaching the final goal are two: to start and to continue. If these requirements are met there is no doubt the goal will be attained. This is the Dhamma, the undeviating law.

- BB
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Re: What's wrong with living a "normal" life?

Post by chownah »

mettafuture wrote:
bodom wrote:Nothing, and dont let the naysayers lead you to believe you must renounce these things. The Buddha praised this lifestyle for his lay followers. Please see the Mangala Sutta, Sigolavada Sutta and Vyagghapajja Sutta.

Everyman's Ethics: Four Discourses of the Buddha by Narada Thera
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... el014.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

:anjali:
Thank you.

I'll give these suttas a closer look tonight.

:anjali:
If you find nothing wrong with living a "normal" life and find it completely fulfilling then why are you wasting your time reading Suttas?....why not just go out there and live that completely fulfilling life?
chownah
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Re: What's wrong with living a "normal" life?

Post by Sanghamitta »

Get out of bed the wrong side today Chownah ?

That is a complete non sequitur. As lay people we don't have to choose one or the other. We can read Suttas and practice meditation and the rest of the Eightfold Path AND do the things posited in the OP.
The going for refuge is the door of entrance to the teachings of the Buddha.

Bhikku Bodhi.
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Re: What's wrong with living a "normal" life?

Post by zazang »

Nothing wrong but we dont need anyone to tell us a simple truth - Greater the attachment , greater the sorrow. If you are not attached , you can enjoy
a great 'normal' life.

"There is no greater sorrow than seperation
There is no greater joy than freedom"

Also , no matter what I do and however happy I get , I always sense something burning inside. I cannot explain that burning - its just there. Only when
that burning is extinguished , will I be truly happy.

metta
zazang
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