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The Danger of Rebirth - Dhamma Wheel

The Danger of Rebirth

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths. What can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
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clw_uk
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The Danger of Rebirth

Postby clw_uk » Wed Feb 11, 2009 6:45 pm

Didnt feel this falls under the thread discussing if rebirth is literal or not as I wanted to discuss the danger of holding the view of rebirth in relation to nibbana.

Many Buddhists seem to mistake Rebirth as the central core of the Buddhas Dhamma. This hower is contary to the correct Right View which does not include the teaching of Rebirth,this is included in mundande right view, it is right view with Effulents.

The Buddha only taught rebirth to those who could not understand his higher teaching, or who were not yet ready. To those he thought would understand he taught that all things conditioned are Anatta, dukkha and Anicca, empty of a self and so there is no rebirth of anything. His true teaching was concerned with ridding oneself of self view so there is no more becoming and to quench the fires of greed hatred and delusion so there is no longer any Dukkha.

Since the Buddha did not teach rebirth as part of his higher dhamma it is dangerous to hold onto it if one wants to reach nibbana. The reason for this is because rebirth leads to a sense of self, "I will be reborn" or to a belief that something continues.

The name in fact itself is contary to the Buddhadhamma, RE-BORN implies that something comes again which is completely contradictory to Anatta. To hold that rebirth is central to the teachings is close to making Buddhism a form of Hinduism.

Those who argue for rebirth cite the re-linking consciousness argument. As stated in other posts there is no re-linking consciousness, look at the suttas the buddha never mentions anything like it, and neither is Dependent Origination a model for how rebirth happens. The argument that rebirth occurs can be true from a mundane level as the Buddha does say on many occasions that beings fare on after death according to their actions, however he never goes into detail about how this happens only that it will but as stated this is a mundane teaching and does not lead to nibbana as it is an eternalist teaching which the buddha did teach to the lay.


The Buddhas message was the ending of becoming of the sense of I and self, the ending of dukkha not about rebirth.

I have good intentions in starting this thread, im not writting this post to appear to know it all and you obviously dont have to agree with me but i felt i should start this thread because I personally feel that the view of Rebirth is greatly holding back a lot of buddhist from seeing the true Dhamma.

Any comments would be appreciated.

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mikenz66
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Re: The Danger of Rebirth

Postby mikenz66 » Wed Feb 11, 2009 7:14 pm


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Re: The Danger of Rebirth

Postby Prasadachitta » Wed Feb 11, 2009 7:18 pm

"Beautifully taught is the Lord's Dhamma, immediately apparent, timeless, of the nature of a personal invitation, progressive, to be attained by the wise, each for himself." Anguttara Nikaya V.332

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clw_uk
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Re: The Danger of Rebirth

Postby clw_uk » Wed Feb 11, 2009 7:24 pm

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Re: The Danger of Rebirth

Postby Prasadachitta » Wed Feb 11, 2009 7:41 pm

Last edited by Prasadachitta on Wed Feb 11, 2009 7:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"Beautifully taught is the Lord's Dhamma, immediately apparent, timeless, of the nature of a personal invitation, progressive, to be attained by the wise, each for himself." Anguttara Nikaya V.332

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Re: The Danger of Rebirth

Postby mikenz66 » Wed Feb 11, 2009 7:45 pm


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Re: The Danger of Rebirth

Postby clw_uk » Wed Feb 11, 2009 7:46 pm

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Re: The Danger of Rebirth

Postby clw_uk » Wed Feb 11, 2009 7:47 pm

Mikenz66, in order to awaken one needs to leave mundane right view, see the error and danger in it and transcend to the higher dhamma.

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Re: The Danger of Rebirth

Postby cooran » Wed Feb 11, 2009 7:52 pm

Hello clw_uk,

Of course there is no you - Anatta is the basic teaching of the Buddha without which none of the other teachings stand.
BUT - the Buddha also taught that this "flux of latent tendencies and kammic accumulations" (me and you)rebecomes in another form and place after the death of the current one. What is so controversial about that? No medals for pointing out the obvious. All Traditions teach that the individuals' identity does not continue. However, you can't start at the conclusion of the Path - you start at the beginning with Generosity and Morality and go forward from there. We have all just learned to read in Primary School - no point is us quoting text books from University and implying we understand completely. Wisdom (panna) is not intellectual parroting of a definition, it is "seeing things as they really are". We are so-o-o far from that, even having wandered in Sa.msara since beginningless time.


metta
Chris
---The trouble is that you think you have time---
---Worry is the Interest, paid in advance, on a debt you may never owe---
---It's not what happens to you in life that is important ~ it's what you do with it ---

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Re: The Danger of Rebirth

Postby clw_uk » Wed Feb 11, 2009 7:56 pm

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Re: The Danger of Rebirth

Postby mikenz66 » Wed Feb 11, 2009 8:01 pm


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Re: The Danger of Rebirth

Postby clw_uk » Wed Feb 11, 2009 8:06 pm

Last edited by clw_uk on Wed Feb 11, 2009 8:09 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: The Danger of Rebirth

Postby mountain » Wed Feb 11, 2009 8:07 pm

I think it is helpful to understand that Shakyamuni came into a world where there were many systems that had at their core transmigation. For his teaching to survive independently it was nesscessary to distance it from the the pre-buddhistic brahmanical body of teachings. These teachings are called the 62 heretical teachings.
John

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cooran
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Re: The Danger of Rebirth

Postby cooran » Wed Feb 11, 2009 8:10 pm

---The trouble is that you think you have time---
---Worry is the Interest, paid in advance, on a debt you may never owe---
---It's not what happens to you in life that is important ~ it's what you do with it ---

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Re: The Danger of Rebirth

Postby Prasadachitta » Wed Feb 11, 2009 8:14 pm

"Beautifully taught is the Lord's Dhamma, immediately apparent, timeless, of the nature of a personal invitation, progressive, to be attained by the wise, each for himself." Anguttara Nikaya V.332

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clw_uk
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Re: The Danger of Rebirth

Postby clw_uk » Wed Feb 11, 2009 8:18 pm

Last edited by clw_uk on Wed Feb 11, 2009 9:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The Danger of Rebirth

Postby clw_uk » Wed Feb 11, 2009 8:25 pm

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Re: The Danger of Rebirth

Postby clw_uk » Wed Feb 11, 2009 8:28 pm

Last edited by clw_uk on Wed Feb 11, 2009 9:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The Danger of Rebirth

Postby clw_uk » Wed Feb 11, 2009 8:57 pm

The point im trying to make is that mundane right view isnt wrong understanding of the buddhas teachings, only that it should be seen for what it is, a mundane teaching that one needs to eventualy let go of so one can realise the higher dhamma and be liberated.

The point is the buddha has stated rebirth is mundane view, it is not the central teachings and is something that needs to be done away with eventually. The buddha has stated that it is a view with effluents.

One who holds rebirth stays in the mundane, they hold that it is central and for this they are mistaken. To hold rebirth as central is to hold the mundane as central and is to cut one off from the higher dhamma and from nibbana.

I dont deny rebirth was taught, just that its meaning and centrality have been distorted through the centuries.
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Re: The Danger of Rebirth

Postby Prasadachitta » Wed Feb 11, 2009 9:15 pm

"Beautifully taught is the Lord's Dhamma, immediately apparent, timeless, of the nature of a personal invitation, progressive, to be attained by the wise, each for himself." Anguttara Nikaya V.332


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