Luminious mind

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism

Re: Luminious mind

Postby bodom » Sun Jul 04, 2010 3:15 pm

Mawkish1983 wrote:I think a lot of these questions miss the point (the questions seem to contradict anatta to me), and through insight alone can the truth be known.


I think thats what Goedert was getting at.

:anjali:
The heart of the path is SO simple. No need for long explanations. Give up clinging to love and hate, just rest with things as they are. That is all I do in my own practice. Do not try to become anything. Do not make yourself into anything. Do not be a meditator. Do not become enlightened. When you sit, let it be. When you walk, let it be. Grasp at nothing. Resist nothing. Of course, there are dozens of meditation techniques to develop samadhi and many kinds of vipassana. But it all comes back to this - just let it all be. Step over here where it is cool, out of the battle. - Ajahn Chah
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Re: Luminious mind

Postby Mawkish1983 » Sun Jul 04, 2010 3:17 pm

bodom wrote:I think thats what Goedert was getting at.
Ah, gotcha. Sorry, too subtle for me
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Re: Luminious mind

Postby Sherab » Sun Jul 04, 2010 11:58 pm

So the Buddha was making statements that he knew nobody can understand even intellectually except through insight? Was the Buddha's action meaningless then?
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Re: Luminious mind

Postby Mawkish1983 » Mon Jul 05, 2010 4:14 am

The Buddha's actions were not meaningless :)
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Re: Luminious mind

Postby Sherab » Mon Jul 05, 2010 4:23 am

I said
Sherab wrote:So the Buddha was making statements that he knew nobody can understand even intellectually except through insight? Was the Buddha's action meaningless then?


You replied
Mawkish1983 wrote:The Buddha's actions were not meaningless :)


Now I ask: why?
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Re: Luminious mind

Postby jcsuperstar » Mon Jul 05, 2010 4:27 am

why would they be (meaningless)? the Buddha gave instruction on how to gain insight, so the fault is not that of the Buddha but of those who haven't put those instruction to use.
สัพเพ สัตตา สุขีตา โหนตุ

the mountain may be heavy in and of itself, but if you're not trying to carry it it's not heavy to you- Ajaan Suwat
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Re: Luminious mind

Postby Virgo » Mon Jul 05, 2010 4:35 am

Even if people can only understand them through insight, stating these things was not meaningless in the slightest because it could inspire people to gain that insight. Nothing the Buddha does is meaningless.

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Re: Luminious mind

Postby Sherab » Mon Jul 05, 2010 5:17 am

Virgo wrote:Even if people can only understand them through insight, stating these things was not meaningless in the slightest because it could inspire people to gain that insight. Nothing the Buddha does is meaningless.

Kevin

How could something in which you do not even have the possibility of the slightest intellectual understanding be an inspiration to gain that insight? How do you know that it would not be a complete waste of time to pursue that insight?
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Re: Luminious mind

Postby jcsuperstar » Mon Jul 05, 2010 5:23 am

when reading a sutta it is helpful to look at who the sutta is being given to. maybe its being given to monks with insight, maybe to a farmer with no understanding of the dhamma at all. the dhamma was given by the Buddha to different people at different times with different understandings and abilities, maybe this is something you just don't understand yet.
สัพเพ สัตตา สุขีตา โหนตุ

the mountain may be heavy in and of itself, but if you're not trying to carry it it's not heavy to you- Ajaan Suwat
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Re: Luminious mind

Postby Sherab » Mon Jul 05, 2010 7:04 am

Of course the Buddha gave teachings according to the capacity of the audience or recipient. But this does not answer my question about inspiration isn't it?
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Re: Luminious mind

Postby Sherab » Mon Jul 05, 2010 7:07 am

This thread is getting nowhere. Time to kill it.
Thanks everyone for your participation.
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Re: Luminious mind

Postby jcsuperstar » Mon Jul 05, 2010 7:47 am

Sherab wrote:Of course the Buddha gave teachings according to the capacity of the audience or recipient. But this does not answer my question about inspiration isn't it?

it would provide inspiration to those who are ready to be inspired by it.

there are many advanced scientific ideas i do not understand, should i just assume they are of no worth since i cant understand them?
สัพเพ สัตตา สุขีตา โหนตุ

the mountain may be heavy in and of itself, but if you're not trying to carry it it's not heavy to you- Ajaan Suwat
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Re: Luminious mind

Postby Sherab » Mon Jul 05, 2010 9:02 am

Scientific ideas can be understood intellectually.
Certain utterance of Buddha's cannot be understood without having insight - that's the point that some people here tried to make. My point is that there is no point in making statements that only people who already have insight can understand because if they already have the insight, the utterances served no purpose.
Let's end this meaningless discussion. Thank you.
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Re: Luminious mind

Postby dhamma follower » Mon Jul 05, 2010 1:56 pm

Sherab wrote:"Luminous, monks, is the mind. And it is defiled by incoming defilements."
"Luminous, monks, is the mind. And it is freed from incoming defilements."
"Luminous, monks, is the mind. And it is defiled by incoming defilements. The uninstructed run-of-the-mill person doesn't discern that as it actually is present, which is why I tell you that -- for the uninstructed run-of-the-mill person -- there is no development of the mind."
"Luminous, monks, is the mind. And it is freed from incoming defilements. The well-instructed noble disciple discerns that as it actually is present, which is why I tell you that -- for the well-instructed noble disciple -- there is development of the mind."

Anguttara Nikaya I.49-52
Pabhassara Suttas

The above verses seem to say that the key to development of the mind is to discern that as it actually is present. What is that as it actually is present?


IMHU, the luminous mind is the natural quality of the mind to know things as they are before defilements come in. This is also the mind of an arahant. An ordinary person can also experience this luminous mind when he attains the stage of equanimity toward all formations. The minds is extremely sharp, is aware of the minutest details and totally equanimous. It has the quality of being luminous but there's no light, it's simply the luminosity of wisdom or fredom from defilements.
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Re: Luminious mind

Postby BubbaBuddhist » Mon Jul 05, 2010 3:27 pm

I never found the "luminous mind" references all that murky, especially when the various references are brought together. They seem to describe the qualities of a mind unsullied by defilements. Like scraping mud from a backlit window: perception shines through without obstruction.

J
Author of Redneck Buddhism: or Will You Reincarnate as Your Own Cousin?
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Re: Luminious mind

Postby Mawkish1983 » Mon Jul 05, 2010 5:32 pm

Sherab, what is insight?
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Re: Luminious mind

Postby Sherab » Mon Jul 05, 2010 11:55 pm

Bubbabuddhist wrote:I never found the "luminous mind" references all that murky, especially when the various references are brought together. They seem to describe the qualities of a mind unsullied by defilements. Like scraping mud from a backlit window: perception shines through without obstruction.

J

When the five aggregates cease, would not the mind cease? So what qualities of a mind is there to talk about?
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Re: Luminious mind

Postby Sherab » Mon Jul 05, 2010 11:55 pm

Mawkish1983 wrote:Sherab, what is insight?

Ask yourself. You're the one that used the word first.
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Re: Luminious mind

Postby kc2dpt » Tue Jul 06, 2010 3:19 am

Sherab wrote:
Bubbabuddhist wrote:They seem to describe the qualities of a mind unsullied by defilements.

When the five aggregates cease, would not the mind cease? So what qualities of a mind is there to talk about?

You seem to be equating "defilements" with "five aggregates". What is your basis for this?
Recall that for an arahant the defilements have ceased and yet there are still the five aggregates.
- Peter

Be heedful and you will accomplish your goal.
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Re: Luminious mind

Postby Sherab » Tue Jul 06, 2010 4:18 am

Peter wrote:
Sherab wrote:
Bubbabuddhist wrote:They seem to describe the qualities of a mind unsullied by defilements.

When the five aggregates cease, would not the mind cease? So what qualities of a mind is there to talk about?

You seem to be equating "defilements" with "five aggregates". What is your basis for this?
Recall that for an arahant the defilements have ceased and yet there are still the five aggregates.

Good question.

DN11:
"'Your question should not be phrased in this way: Where do these four great elements — the earth property, the liquid property, the fire property, and the wind property — cease without remainder? Instead, it should be phrased like this:
Where do water, earth, fire, & wind have no footing?
Where are long & short, coarse & fine, fair & foul,name & form
brought to an end?
"'And the answer to that is:
Consciousness without feature, without end,luminous all around:
Here water, earth, fire, & wind have no footing.
Here long & short coarse & fine, fair & foul , name & form are all brought to an end.
With the cessation of consciousness each is here brought to an end.'"

My interpretation of the above utterance of the Buddha is that "cessation" is merely a convention of the world and that in reality there is no cessation of the elements. When consciousness "ceases", then the elements also "ceases" when use in the convention of the world but not in reality.
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