Luminious mind

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
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Sherab
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Re: Luminious mind

Post by Sherab »

Thanks IanAnd. Yes, I do appreciate the take given by Bhk. Nanananda.
However, I somehow think that the Buddha was pointing to something extremely subtle.
When ignorance disappear, sankhara disappear; when sankhara disappear, vinnana disappear as so on. In other words, the whole PS chain disappear. If the whole PS chain disappear, what have we got left? That is what I think the Buddha is pointing to.
However, I don't think the Buddha is pointing to some basic thing from which all things arise. That would be Advaita Vedanta in philosophy. Having studied with Hindu masters of his time, certainly the Buddha could not be saying he agreed with that. So, what I am left with is a question mark.
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tiltbillings
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Re: Luminious mind

Post by tiltbillings »

Sherab wrote:However, I somehow think that the Buddha was pointing to something extremely subtle.
When ignorance disappear, sankhara disappear; when sankhara disappear, vinnana disappear as so on. In other words, the whole PS chain disappear. If the whole PS chain disappear, what have we got left? That is what I think the Buddha is pointing to.
At what point are you talking about? The moment of awakening, or the day-to-day liofe of an awakened one? There is no thing left over at either point that is somehow what truly is. I think it needs to be kept in mind that it is a process of knowing (not ontology) that is being gotten at here.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
Sanghamitta
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Re: Luminious mind

Post by Sanghamitta »

Nothing wrong with question marks. They should motivate us to practice more.
The going for refuge is the door of entrance to the teachings of the Buddha.

Bhikku Bodhi.
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tiltbillings
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Re: Luminious mind

Post by tiltbillings »

Sherab wrote: However, I somehow think that the Buddha was pointing to something extremely subtle.
When ignorance disappear, sankhara disappear; when sankhara disappear, vinnana disappear as so on. In other words, the whole PS chain disappear. If the whole PS chain disappear, what have we got left?
What is left is the chain without the conditioning greed, hatred, and delusion. After all: when I [the Buddha] come to the highway, if I do not see anyone in front or behind, at that time I find it pleasant, at least for the purpose of urinating and excreting. Yasasutta AN.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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Sherab
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Re: Luminious mind

Post by Sherab »

Sanghamitta wrote:Nothing wrong with question marks. They should motivate us to practice more.
Agreed
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Sherab
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Re: Luminious mind

Post by Sherab »

tiltbillings wrote:
Sherab wrote: However, I somehow think that the Buddha was pointing to something extremely subtle.
When ignorance disappear, sankhara disappear; when sankhara disappear, vinnana disappear as so on. In other words, the whole PS chain disappear. If the whole PS chain disappear, what have we got left?
What is left is the chain without the conditioning greed, hatred, and delusion. After all: when I [the Buddha] come to the highway, if I do not see anyone in front or behind, at that time I find it pleasant, at least for the purpose of urinating and excreting. Yasasutta AN.
My problem is what drives the unconditioned chain? Unconditioned chain seems to be an oxymoron to me.
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cooran
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Re: Luminious mind

Post by cooran »

tiltbillings wrote:
Sherab wrote: However, I somehow think that the Buddha was pointing to something extremely subtle.
When ignorance disappear, sankhara disappear; when sankhara disappear, vinnana disappear as so on. In other words, the whole PS chain disappear. If the whole PS chain disappear, what have we got left?
What is left is the chain without the conditioning greed, hatred, and delusion. After all: when I [the Buddha] come to the highway, if I do not see anyone in front or behind, at that time I find it pleasant, at least for the purpose of urinating and excreting. Yasasutta AN.
Hello Tilt,

Could you explain in more detail what you mean, for those of us who have missed the point?

Here is the full sutta from which you took the quote:
AN 8.86 Yasa Sutta: Honor
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

with metta
Chris
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tiltbillings
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Re: Luminious mind

Post by tiltbillings »

cooran wrote:
Hello Tilt,

Could you explain in more detail what you mean, for those of us who have missed the point?
The conditioning that matters, that chain of conditioning which keeps us bound to samsara has stopped, but the conditions of life still continue. We could go the Mahayana route and essentially deify the Buddha, stating his mind utterly other than ours, which the Mahayana takes to docetic heights. That is not necessarily the picture we get in the suttas. There is no subtle truly true reality. For the Buddha, or any awakened individual, it is the same stuff we all deal with. For the Buddha and the arahants, however, that stuff is simply no longer conditioned by greed, hatred, and delusion.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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Sherab
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Re: Luminious mind

Post by Sherab »

tiltbillings wrote:
cooran wrote:
Hello Tilt,

Could you explain in more detail what you mean, for those of us who have missed the point?
The conditioning that matters, that chain of conditioning which keeps us bound to samsara has stopped, but the conditions of life still continue. We could go the Mahayana route and essentially deify the Buddha, stating his mind utterly other than ours, which the Mahayana takes to docetic heights. That is not necessarily the picture we get in the suttas. There is no subtle truly true reality. For the Buddha, or any awakened individual, it is the same stuff we all deal with. For the Buddha and the arahants, however, that stuff is simply no longer conditioned by greed, hatred, and delusion.
So there is a "pure" realm where undefiled conditioning drives its existence and where "pure" beings abide and there is the "impure" realm driven by defiled conditionings where we the "impure" beings abide?
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tiltbillings
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Re: Luminious mind

Post by tiltbillings »

Sherab wrote:
So there is a "pure" realm where undefiled conditioning drives its existence and where "pure" beings abide and there is the "impure" realm driven by defiled conditionings where we the "impure" beings abide?
Not taught in the Pali suttas.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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Sherab
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Re: Luminious mind

Post by Sherab »

tiltbillings wrote:
Sherab wrote:
So there is a "pure" realm where undefiled conditioning drives its existence and where "pure" beings abide and there is the "impure" realm driven by defiled conditionings where we the "impure" beings abide?
Not taught in the Pali suttas.
I know, but that seems to me to be the logical conclusion from your previous post.
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jcsuperstar
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Re: Luminious mind

Post by jcsuperstar »

Sherab wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:
Sherab wrote:
So there is a "pure" realm where undefiled conditioning drives its existence and where "pure" beings abide and there is the "impure" realm driven by defiled conditionings where we the "impure" beings abide?
Not taught in the Pali suttas.
I know, but that seems to me to be the logical conclusion from your previous post.
:thinking: :shrug:
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the mountain may be heavy in and of itself, but if you're not trying to carry it it's not heavy to you- Ajaan Suwat
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tiltbillings
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Re: Luminious mind

Post by tiltbillings »

Sherab wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:
Sherab wrote:
So there is a "pure" realm where undefiled conditioning drives its existence and where "pure" beings abide and there is the "impure" realm driven by defiled conditionings where we the "impure" beings abide?
Not taught in the Pali suttas.
I know, but that seems to me to be the logical conclusion from your previous post.
Interesting, I would say just the opposite, at least. I kind of wonder if you are making an unwarranted jump somewhere along the line. Because there is no separate realms of the unconditioned as opposed to the conditioned, that we can free ourselves from the conditioning of greed, hatred, and delusion.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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Sherab
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Re: Luminious mind

Post by Sherab »

jcsuperstar wrote:
Sherab wrote:
I know, but that seems to me to be the logical conclusion from your previous post.
:thinking: :shrug:
From Tiltbillings previous post:
"The conditioning that matters, that chain of conditioning which keeps us bound to samsara has stopped, but the conditions of life still continue."
What else could be concluded from the above?
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Re: Luminious mind

Post by Kenshou »

Where are you getting this "realm" business from?

For a Buddha, they deal with the same stuff everyone else does, but they are free from clinging, and so free from craving and aversion, no longer influenced by them. An awakened person interacts with the same world, but without pushing or pulling, or stress. That's it.
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