Viewing images of Corpses online

General discussion of issues related to Theravada Meditation, e.g. meditation postures, developing a regular sitting practice, skillfully relating to difficulties and hindrances, etc.
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Annapurna
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Re: Viewing images of Corpses online

Post by Annapurna »

Sanghamitta wrote:A few years ago Ben, one of the most senior lay Buddhists in the UK died. He was in his late eighties and had been associated with Buddhadhamma from almost its earliest days in the UK. When he knew he was dying he requested to die at Amaravati. Ajahn Sumedho agreed to this and eventually he did die there. As a teaching his body was washed and laid out on full display in the shrine room for some time..quite a number of days. During this time the usual number of visitors continued to come to the monastery, which gets large numbers of lay people visiting at at times . Eventually the normal odours of decay began to become a little intrusive and so he was laid to rest. Ajahn Sumedho was fulsome in his praise and considered the lesson that had been made possible by the deceased to be an act of great generosity.
Sunday a week ago, I found a beautiful young blackbird in my garden, lying on it's back, wings spread, head to the side in a gracious way, eyes open.

It was dead, and the wind played in its feathers.

I left it there for a week.

It didn't lose any of it's beauty, nor form, nor did it stink. When I finally decided I would take it to rest in a quiet place, it was light. It had become a mummy.

I carefully placed it on the floor in another place, in the cool shade.

I live in the country, and seeing death is something we grow up with.

Why would we have to stare at human bodies to realize things about nature we know since we're small.
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jcsuperstar
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Re: Viewing images of Corpses online

Post by jcsuperstar »

Thai people in my experience seem to be very casual about seeing death. far different from here in America. i remember watching the news when i was living in Bangkok and there we were at the scene of some accident, just like on American TV, but then BAM it's the dead body and here comes the wife to see it for the 1st time and crying and it was overwhelming for me, i had never been exposed to anything like this. many Thai people also forward photos of dead bodies from all sorts of sources, once while staying at the temple before i was married my future wife was looking at some rather grotesque corpse photos that other Thai people i knew had passed around, i was kinda grossed out by them but she just looked at me and said "it's just anicca"... i was amazed.
สัพเพ สัตตา สุขีตา โหนตุ

the mountain may be heavy in and of itself, but if you're not trying to carry it it's not heavy to you- Ajaan Suwat
Sanghamitta
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Re: Viewing images of Corpses online

Post by Sanghamitta »

If you don't see why Ajahn Sumedho made the point he made...then that's OK.
If such practices would not lead to a greater understanding for you ..then that's OK.
Clearly for some people, including some people who show themselves to have a depth insight into Buddhadhamma they are a very graphic and useful skillful means.
As I said they are very strong medicine.
They also for some people, cut across some of the image of how Buddhadhamma should be .
I seldom posted on E Sangha but I often read it. I remember this same topic causing great aversion for some people. One of whom even said that if this was what Buddhism was about then she had made a mistake in professing an interest.
The fact is that some practices are not for general use, and in any case should be part of a wider and balanced approach.
The going for refuge is the door of entrance to the teachings of the Buddha.

Bhikku Bodhi.
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Ben
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Re: Viewing images of Corpses online

Post by Ben »

Hi JC

I had a similar television moment when I was in India 20 years ago. Between meditation courses I and a few friends got out of the centre for a few days and stayed in a hotel in Nasik. The news came on and they were reporting on an aircrash in Bangalore (I think), and there were bits of bodies and charred corpses on prime time tv. And then the next day I witnessed a funeral procession of a local holy man on an open stretcher and his many thousands of crying devotees on their way down to the ghats.
Incredible!
kind regards

Ben
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

Compassionate Hands Foundation (Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • Buddhist Global ReliefUNHCR

e: [email protected]..
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Ben
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Re: Viewing images of Corpses online

Post by Ben »

Annapurna wrote: Why would we have to stare at human bodies to realize things about nature we know since we're small.
Its a different type of knowledge, Anna. When we engage in practice, we develop nana: knowledge/insight. Its the wisdom that arises from directly penetrating the nature of nama and rupa: bhavana-maya-panna.
Contemplation of death was praised by the Buddha, and in the Satipatthana Sutta, he gives instructions for the contemplation of a corpse in its different states of decay. It is a powerful and profound technique that can precipitate awakening.
Having said that, my impression is that it is not for everyone.
Metta

Ben
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

Compassionate Hands Foundation (Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • Buddhist Global ReliefUNHCR

e: [email protected]..
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tiltbillings
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Re: Viewing images of Corpses online

Post by tiltbillings »

Annapurna wrote:
It didn't lose any of it's beauty, nor form, nor did it stink. When I finally decided I would take it to rest in a quiet place, it was light. It had become a mummy.
Likely all its guts and muscles were quickly eaten by maggots, beetles, and the like under the cover of its feathers, leaving a shell of bones, inedible connective tissue and feathers. Next time a cow dies in your yard, leave that there for a week or two.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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jcsuperstar
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Re: Viewing images of Corpses online

Post by jcsuperstar »

:jawdrop:
สัพเพ สัตตา สุขีตา โหนตุ

the mountain may be heavy in and of itself, but if you're not trying to carry it it's not heavy to you- Ajaan Suwat
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Annapurna
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Re: Viewing images of Corpses online

Post by Annapurna »

jcsuperstar wrote: many Thai people also forward photos of dead bodies from all sorts of sources, once while staying at the temple before i was married my future wife was looking at some rather grotesque corpse photos that other Thai people i knew had passed around, i was kinda grossed out by them but she just looked at me and said "it's just anicca"... i was amazed.
Differences between cultures and "religions", imo.

In my culture, death is considered a private affair, just like sex and other things that aren't usually at display.
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Annapurna
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Re: Viewing images of Corpses online

Post by Annapurna »

Ben wrote:
Annapurna wrote: Why would we have to stare at human bodies to realize things about nature we know since we're small.
Its a different type of knowledge, Anna. When we engage in practice, we develop nana: knowledge/insight. Its the wisdom that arises from directly penetrating the nature of nama and rupa: bhavana-maya-panna.
Contemplation of death was praised by the Buddha, and in the Satipatthana Sutta, he gives instructions for the contemplation of a corpse in its different states of decay. It is a powerful and profound technique that can precipitate awakening.
Having said that, my impression is that it is not for everyone.
Metta

Ben
Hello, Ben,

as I already pointed out in my PM to you, I know the Buddha recommended the contemplation of death and of corpses. I have done it many times, (as I already mentioned), I think even as young as a child. You see, I came to parents who had lost their second son in a heartbreaking accident, leaving both them and my older brother behind in deepest sadness. When I came, it changed...but I knew the source of their sorrow. I felt greatly responsible for those 2 people, and felt like "bringing sunshine", and being cautious with my life. :smile:

So death was an early contemplation.

That said, what I am truly concerned about is not me, -aversion or fear-, which should be clear to anybody who read and understood my first post here. But I agree that many people will have issues with death and corpses.

My concern is this:

I feel uncomfortable with images of dead people if I am not sure they haven given their permission to use this photo, nor their families.

In the internet, you are not allowed to download or use the property of others without permission.

Another concern is, that death is often a time of great stress, pain and suffering. People who die in a car accident are sometimes not dead on the spot, but will scream and wail and cry for help until it is over.

I have witnessed car accidents and I know how incredibly they can suffer.

How can anybody use this photo for his own gain? It sits wrong with me, but if that's what people want, who am I to say they shouldn't.

I have been hurt in 2 accidents myself, and would have been very upset if my photos had been published and displayed without my permission. This is my privacy, and in my land we respect that, (largely).

Our media here self-restrict themselves when they show victims of catastrophes to protect privacy. You will see a crashed car, but rarely badly injured or bodies. This is not koscher in my land. Not because we are too weak to face death, but because of privacy.

I am against anything that could violate those rights, the privacy and dignity of dead or alive people and I feel using their images is. If that is not understood, I can't explain it. Then we will have to agree to disagree.

If somebody wants to contemplate decay, why is it not sufficient to buy a slice of above mentioned cow and let it rot in your bed and take a good sniff? Wouldn't that be brave? Why only meditate about it and go home to a perfumed bed?

How about doing charity work and help cleaning the stinking wounds of a cancer patient, how about that?

Anybody done that? I have. Tell ME about death.

Another facet is, here in my land:

Disturbing the peace of the dead is a felony here.

As much as it is a felony to watch others copulating without their permission, it is a felony not to bury or burn somebody according to the laws, to have him in public view as this master would be illegal, unless they agreed to give their body to science or crime science.

Summary: If a permission is given, fine, but if not, I'm concerned.

For all those who want to look at bodies, I can recommend http://www.rotten.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;.

It's a page German Google removes due to legal aspects.

I gotta go work, don't know if I will be back anytime soon.
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bodom
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Re: Viewing images of Corpses online

Post by bodom »

Hi Ben

Thanks for the link to Anatomy for Beginners. It is excellent. Very educational and a good source for those who want to use the images for contemplation of the unattractive nature of the body.

:anjali:
Liberation is the inevitable fruit of the path and is bound to blossom forth when there is steady and persistent practice. The only requirements for reaching the final goal are two: to start and to continue. If these requirements are met there is no doubt the goal will be attained. This is the Dhamma, the undeviating law.

- BB
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Re: Viewing images of Corpses online

Post by cooran »

Interesting reactions in this thread .....

I have worked with women who lost their baby during the process of childbirth. Some react with dosa and want the corpse taken away immediately and collected by the funeral director. But some want to stay in the birth suites for a few days, holding the little one, while relatives come to be with them both. Sometimes the body is refrigerated overnight, and returned at the mothers' request when she awakens. Over a few days, the little one changes colour, darkening perceptibly, and the odour arising becomes stronger. All of this, seems to ease the grief of the mother and relatives - and, after a couple of days, she is able to let go of the intense feelings surrounding the death and be more peaceful. Here, this is more so with families of South Pacific origin rather than European. Those of the Moslem faith, of course, have strict rules about burial before sunset.

I think it depends on the fear and attachment of the people involved, or their view of the world educated by their religion, as well as their religious communitys' understanding of what 'life' and 'beings' actually are.

with metta
Chris
---The trouble is that you think you have time---
---Worry is the Interest, paid in advance, on a debt you may never owe---
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Annapurna
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Re: Viewing images of Corpses online

Post by Annapurna »

Those of the Moslem faith, of course, have strict rules about burial before sunset.
They make sense too.

In very hot climate, without cooling facilities, bodies decompose rapidly.

A lot of Muslim rules are rooted in hygienic knowledge, although it may not be declared as the reason.
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octathlon
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Re: Viewing images of Corpses online

Post by octathlon »

When I was about 18, I took an anatomy class and in the lab section we had human cadavers. The medical students dissected them during their lab, and in my lab we just observed them and learned all the parts. I remember contemplating the cadavers, seeing them from both the perspective of marveling at the structure of the body, but also imagining how these bodies once walked, talked, thought, loved, etc. and of course how this would also be my end on day, which did not disturb me. It was a valuable experience in many ways. But I remember thinking that I wouldn't want to have my body donated for this purpose. :lol:
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Re: Viewing images of Corpses online

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings,

Relevant extract from...

MN 10: Satipatthana Sutta
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

... on the use of death in mental cultivation.
"Furthermore, as if he were to see a corpse cast away in a charnel ground — one day, two days, three days dead — bloated, livid, & festering, he applies it to this very body, 'This body, too: Such is its nature, such is its future, such its unavoidable fate'...

"Or again, as if he were to see a corpse cast away in a charnel ground, picked at by crows, vultures, & hawks, by dogs, hyenas, & various other creatures... a skeleton smeared with flesh & blood, connected with tendons... a fleshless skeleton smeared with blood, connected with tendons... a skeleton without flesh or blood, connected with tendons... bones detached from their tendons, scattered in all directions — here a hand bone, there a foot bone, here a shin bone, there a thigh bone, here a hip bone, there a back bone, here a rib, there a breast bone, here a shoulder bone, there a neck bone, here a jaw bone, there a tooth, here a skull... the bones whitened, somewhat like the color of shells... piled up, more than a year old... decomposed into a powder: He applies it to this very body, 'This body, too: Such is its nature, such is its future, such its unavoidable fate.'

"In this way he remains focused internally on the body in & of itself, or externally on the body in & of itself, or both internally & externally on the body in & of itself. Or he remains focused on the phenomenon of origination with regard to the body, on the phenomenon of passing away with regard to the body, or on the phenomenon of origination & passing away with regard to the body. Or his mindfulness that 'There is a body' is maintained to the extent of knowledge & remembrance. And he remains independent, unsustained by (not clinging to) anything in the world. This is how a monk remains focused on the body in & of itself.
Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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Re: Viewing images of Corpses online

Post by jcsuperstar »

seems like there is some taking the body as the self going on in a lot of the aversion to these practices. i wouldn't want my body used like that etc. as if there is some you or him or she that is that lifeless body being looked at. why is there not the same aversion to being seen by others walking down the street? they are seeing and using your body in anyway they choose and you have no control over it. and when dealing with a dead body you are no longer dealing with a person, in any way, they feel no pain , no embarrassment.
สัพเพ สัตตา สุขีตา โหนตุ

the mountain may be heavy in and of itself, but if you're not trying to carry it it's not heavy to you- Ajaan Suwat
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