Luminious mind

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism

Re: Luminious mind

Postby Sherab » Tue Jul 06, 2010 8:23 am

tiltbillings wrote:
Sherab wrote:
So there is a "pure" realm where undefiled conditioning drives its existence and where "pure" beings abide and there is the "impure" realm driven by defiled conditionings where we the "impure" beings abide?

Not taught in the Pali suttas.


I know, but that seems to me to be the logical conclusion from your previous post.
User avatar
Sherab
 
Posts: 163
Joined: Tue Jun 29, 2010 3:53 am

Re: Luminious mind

Postby jcsuperstar » Tue Jul 06, 2010 8:26 am

Sherab wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:
Sherab wrote:
So there is a "pure" realm where undefiled conditioning drives its existence and where "pure" beings abide and there is the "impure" realm driven by defiled conditionings where we the "impure" beings abide?

Not taught in the Pali suttas.


I know, but that seems to me to be the logical conclusion from your previous post.

:thinking: :shrug:
สัพเพ สัตตา สุขีตา โหนตุ

the mountain may be heavy in and of itself, but if you're not trying to carry it it's not heavy to you- Ajaan Suwat
User avatar
jcsuperstar
 
Posts: 1915
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 5:15 am
Location: alaska

Re: Luminious mind

Postby tiltbillings » Tue Jul 06, 2010 8:30 am

Sherab wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:
Sherab wrote:
So there is a "pure" realm where undefiled conditioning drives its existence and where "pure" beings abide and there is the "impure" realm driven by defiled conditionings where we the "impure" beings abide?

Not taught in the Pali suttas.


I know, but that seems to me to be the logical conclusion from your previous post.
Interesting, I would say just the opposite, at least. I kind of wonder if you are making an unwarranted jump somewhere along the line. Because there is no separate realms of the unconditioned as opposed to the conditioned, that we can free ourselves from the conditioning of greed, hatred, and delusion.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
User avatar
tiltbillings
 
Posts: 19763
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am

Re: Luminious mind

Postby Sherab » Tue Jul 06, 2010 8:33 am

jcsuperstar wrote:
Sherab wrote:
I know, but that seems to me to be the logical conclusion from your previous post.

:thinking: :shrug:


From Tiltbillings previous post:
"The conditioning that matters, that chain of conditioning which keeps us bound to samsara has stopped, but the conditions of life still continue."
What else could be concluded from the above?
User avatar
Sherab
 
Posts: 163
Joined: Tue Jun 29, 2010 3:53 am

Re: Luminious mind

Postby Kenshou » Tue Jul 06, 2010 8:39 am

Where are you getting this "realm" business from?

For a Buddha, they deal with the same stuff everyone else does, but they are free from clinging, and so free from craving and aversion, no longer influenced by them. An awakened person interacts with the same world, but without pushing or pulling, or stress. That's it.
Kenshou
 
Posts: 1029
Joined: Sun Nov 15, 2009 12:03 am
Location: Minneapolis, MN

Re: Luminious mind

Postby tiltbillings » Tue Jul 06, 2010 8:40 am

Sherab wrote:
jcsuperstar wrote:
Sherab wrote:
I know, but that seems to me to be the logical conclusion from your previous post.

:thinking: :shrug:


From Tiltbillings previous post:
"The conditioning that matters, that chain of conditioning which keeps us bound to samsara has stopped, but the conditions of life still continue."
What else could be concluded from the above?
Well, the awakened one is no longer bound by the conditioning of greed, hatred, and delusion. That does not suggest some other pure realm. After all the Buddha finds himself no less the world, as my sutta quotation shows, than are we.

I certainly do not follow your jump here. You will need to spell it out for. Unquestionably I am stuck on stupid here.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
User avatar
tiltbillings
 
Posts: 19763
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am

Re: Luminious mind

Postby tiltbillings » Tue Jul 06, 2010 8:43 am

I am retiring to bed to review some past tense Irish verbs and to lay in the lap of Nyx, to dream dreams. So, I'll respond to whatever when I acheive awakening in this AM.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
User avatar
tiltbillings
 
Posts: 19763
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am

Re: Luminious mind

Postby Sherab » Tue Jul 06, 2010 9:07 am

tiltbillings wrote:Interesting, I would say just the opposite, at least. I kind of wonder if you are making an unwarranted jump somewhere along the line. Because there is no separate realms of the unconditioned as opposed to the conditioned, that we can free ourselves from the conditioning of greed, hatred, and delusion.

You are right. I did make a jump.

The jump is that the realm that sentient beings ("impure" beings) inhabit are "created" by their collective karma (collective defiled conditionings?). "Pure" beings therefore do not share the same collective karma to inhabit in the same realm as the "impure" beings. Since you said "the conditions for life still continue", I presume that "pure" beings should logically be abiding in a different realm that I labelled as "pure" realm. Of course, "pure" beings if they so wish, could choose to be in the "impure" realm of "impure" beings. Does this make sense to you?
User avatar
Sherab
 
Posts: 163
Joined: Tue Jun 29, 2010 3:53 am

Re: Luminious mind

Postby Sanghamitta » Tue Jul 06, 2010 9:16 am

Do you Sherab have direct and personal knowledge that these realms actually exist ?
The going for refuge is the door of entrance to the teachings of the Buddha.

Bhikku Bodhi.
Sanghamitta
 
Posts: 1614
Joined: Wed Jul 29, 2009 9:21 am
Location: By the River Thames near London.

Re: Luminious mind

Postby Sherab » Tue Jul 06, 2010 10:16 am

Sanghamitta wrote:Do you Sherab have direct and personal knowledge that these realms actually exist ?

Huh? I was merely making a conclusion based on what Tiltbillings posted. If the conclusion is right, then Tiltbillings' post is right. If the conclusion is wrong, then Tiltbillings' post is wrong.
User avatar
Sherab
 
Posts: 163
Joined: Tue Jun 29, 2010 3:53 am

Re: Luminious mind

Postby Sanghamitta » Tue Jul 06, 2010 10:26 am

It seems to me that my question is clear and straightforward.
The going for refuge is the door of entrance to the teachings of the Buddha.

Bhikku Bodhi.
Sanghamitta
 
Posts: 1614
Joined: Wed Jul 29, 2009 9:21 am
Location: By the River Thames near London.

Re: Luminious mind

Postby tiltbillings » Tue Jul 06, 2010 1:31 pm

Sherab wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:Interesting, I would say just the opposite, at least. I kind of wonder if you are making an unwarranted jump somewhere along the line. Because there is no separate realms of the unconditioned as opposed to the conditioned, that we can free ourselves from the conditioning of greed, hatred, and delusion.

You are right. I did make a jump.

The jump is that the realm that sentient beings ("impure" beings) inhabit are "created" by their collective karma (collective defiled conditionings?). "Pure" beings therefore do not share the same collective karma to inhabit in the same realm as the "impure" beings. Since you said "the conditions for life still continue", I presume that "pure" beings should logically be abiding in a different realm that I labelled as "pure" realm. Of course, "pure" beings if they so wish, could choose to be in the "impure" realm of "impure" beings. Does this make sense to you?
"Collective karma" is kind of a Mahayana thing, it seems. Collective karma was not taught in the suttas and "realm" here is at best a figure of speech. And just to ask, are you implying the buddha-field thing here?

And you have totally missed my point, it seems.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
User avatar
tiltbillings
 
Posts: 19763
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am

Re: Luminious mind

Postby kc2dpt » Tue Jul 06, 2010 2:52 pm

Sherab wrote:When ignorance disappear, sankhara disappear; when sankhara disappear, vinnana disappear as so on. In other words, the whole PS chain disappear. If the whole PS chain disappear, what have we got left?

Are you asking in reference to an arahant who is still alive or who has died his last death? An arahant who is still alive still experiences some of the PS chain. For example, contact still leads to feeling. Food will still taste good or bad or neither good nor bad. But feeling will no longer lead to craving. For example, the arahant will neither crave good tasting food nor resist bad tasting food.

To put it another way, there is no separate realm. An arahant lives in the same world as the rest of us. His senses still function, he still eats, and sleeps, and thinks, and eventually he dies.

The jump is that the realm that sentient beings ("impure" beings) inhabit are "created" by their ... karma. "Pure" beings therefore do not share the same collective karma to inhabit in the same realm as the "impure" beings.

An arahant continues to live in this impure realm as a result of past karma. Some past karma resulted in him being born. Once born, one grows, older, sicker, and eventually dies. Arahantship does not change this. Once the arahant eventually dies, however, there is no condition for him to be born again.

Now if you are asking about an arahant after death... well the Buddha said quite explicitly that this is something beyond talking about.
- Peter

Be heedful and you will accomplish your goal.
User avatar
kc2dpt
 
Posts: 956
Joined: Thu Jan 01, 2009 3:48 pm

Re: Luminious mind

Postby Lazy_eye » Wed Jul 07, 2010 12:08 am

dhamma follower wrote: IMHU, the luminous mind is the natural quality of the mind to know things as they are before defilements come in. This is also the mind of an arahant. An ordinary person can also experience this luminous mind when he attains the stage of equanimity toward all formations. The minds is extremely sharp, is aware of the minutest details and totally equanimous. It has the quality of being luminous but there's no light, it's simply the luminosity of wisdom or fredom from defilements.


How different is this, really, from Ch’an/Zen “original mind”? Don’t throw rotten fruit at me, peeps – it just seems glaringly evident. You don’t have to read far in any Ch’an text to see a similar concept described in similar language...almost to the letter, in fact, down to the sharpness of mind during satori, the freedom from defilements, equanimity towards formations, etc...

tiltbillings wrote:We could go the Mahayana route and essentially deify the Buddha, stating his mind utterly other than ours, which the Mahayana takes to docetic heights. That is not necessarily the picture we get in the suttas. There is no subtle truly true reality. For the Buddha, or any awakened individual, it is the same stuff we all deal with.


Yet Mayahana asserts that the Buddha's mind is intrinsically within us -- some schools make a point of categorically rejecting the "otherness" you mention. That even applies to the most quasi-theistic branches, e.g. Pure Land.

[/digression]
User avatar
Lazy_eye
 
Posts: 835
Joined: Fri Jan 23, 2009 3:23 pm
Location: Laurel, MD

Re: Luminious mind

Postby Kenshou » Wed Jul 07, 2010 12:17 am

I don't think anyone would disagree with the idea that all minds have the potential for awakening, which I understand to be the gist of the Original Mind and Buddha Nature stuff, but I think the problem is when all sorts of other weird stuff get added into that. I'm not talking about anyone in particular, but it happens.
Kenshou
 
Posts: 1029
Joined: Sun Nov 15, 2009 12:03 am
Location: Minneapolis, MN

Re: Luminious mind

Postby Sherab » Wed Jul 07, 2010 12:45 am

tiltbillings wrote:"Collective karma" is kind of a Mahayana thing, it seems. Collective karma was not taught in the suttas and "realm" here is at best a figure of speech. And just to ask, are you implying the buddha-field thing here?

And you have totally missed my point, it seems.


So there are no teachings in Theravada on cosmology - the arising of the universe, its growth, its endurance and its destruction - and how the various realms (hell, preta, animal, human etc.) come into existence?
User avatar
Sherab
 
Posts: 163
Joined: Tue Jun 29, 2010 3:53 am

Re: Luminious mind

Postby Anicca » Wed Jul 07, 2010 1:59 am

Kenshou wrote:I don't think anyone would disagree with the idea that all minds have the potential for awakening, which I understand to be the gist of the Original Mind and Buddha Nature stuff, but I think the problem is when all sorts of other weird stuff get added into that. I'm not talking about anyone in particular, but it happens.

Apologies if this has already been posted. It is from here: Freedom From Buddha Nature maybe it applies:

This is why the Buddha said that the mind is luminous, stained with defilements that come and go. Taken out of context, this statement might be construed as implying that the mind is inherently awakened. But in context the Buddha is simply saying that the mind, once stained, is not permanently stained. When the conditions for the stains are gone, the mind becomes luminous again. But this luminosity is not an awakened nature. As the Buddha states, this luminous mind can be developed. In the scheme of the four noble truths, if something is to be developed it's not the goal; it's part of the path to the goal. After this luminosity has been developed in the advanced stages of concentration, it's abandoned once it has completed its work in helping to pierce through ignorance.


Seem to recall something about if the original luminous mind equalled the awakened mind, and the the luminous mind could become stained, then so could the awakened mind - which is not the case - therefore the luminous mind cannot be considered the same as the awakened mind.

Metta
Anicca
 
Posts: 393
Joined: Thu Apr 29, 2010 4:11 am
Location: Edmond, Oklahoma

Re: Luminious mind

Postby tiltbillings » Wed Jul 07, 2010 3:27 am

Sherab wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:"Collective karma" is kind of a Mahayana thing, it seems. Collective karma was not taught in the suttas and "realm" here is at best a figure of speech. And just to ask, are you implying the buddha-field thing here?

And you have totally missed my point, it seems.


So there are no teachings in Theravada on cosmology - the arising of the universe, its growth, its endurance and its destruction - and how the various realms (hell, preta, animal, human etc.) come into existence?
I haven't a clue as to what you are talking about, but then you seem not have a clue as to what is being said to you.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
User avatar
tiltbillings
 
Posts: 19763
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am

Re: Luminious mind

Postby Sherab » Wed Jul 07, 2010 3:42 am

tiltbillings wrote:
Sherab wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:"Collective karma" is kind of a Mahayana thing, it seems. Collective karma was not taught in the suttas and "realm" here is at best a figure of speech. And just to ask, are you implying the buddha-field thing here?

And you have totally missed my point, it seems.


So there are no teachings in Theravada on cosmology - the arising of the universe, its growth, its endurance and its destruction - and how the various realms (hell, preta, animal, human etc.) come into existence?
I haven't a clue as to what you are talking about, but then you seem not have a clue as to what is being said to you.

My question is related to the idea of "collective karma" that you basically implied was non-Theravadin. To be specific, some form of collective karma bring into existence the various realms of existence and the arising and ceasing of realms of existence would be related to teachings on cosmology.

Btw, we seemed to be talking pass one another, so let's stop here.
User avatar
Sherab
 
Posts: 163
Joined: Tue Jun 29, 2010 3:53 am

Re: Luminious mind

Postby tiltbillings » Wed Jul 07, 2010 4:01 am

Sherab wrote:.

Btw, we seemed to be talking pass one another. . . .
So it seems, given that you are hardly focusing on what has been clearly said to you by myself and others.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
User avatar
tiltbillings
 
Posts: 19763
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am

PreviousNext

Return to General Theravāda discussion

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 6 guests