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Luminious mind - Page 7 - Dhamma Wheel

Luminious mind

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
Kenshou
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Re: Luminious mind

Postby Kenshou » Wed Jul 07, 2010 5:18 am

Don't mistake my bluntness for harshness here Sherab, but the answer to your last question is simply no.

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Sherab
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Re: Luminious mind

Postby Sherab » Wed Jul 07, 2010 5:26 am


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tiltbillings
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Re: Luminious mind

Postby tiltbillings » Wed Jul 07, 2010 5:42 am


dhamma follower
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Re: Luminious mind

Postby dhamma follower » Wed Jul 07, 2010 7:41 am


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jcsuperstar
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Re: Luminious mind

Postby jcsuperstar » Wed Jul 07, 2010 7:49 am

its a mistake to confuse the two things as the same , even if the language is similar. you see this sort of mistake in regards to taoism and zen, since translations of Buddhist texts into Chinese used similar language to those of taoist texts people assume they are meaning the same thing, but it's simply an accident of language. the problem with an original pure mind is how did it then become impure? what this implies is a pure mind (the mind of an arahant) can regress to an impure state. this is a claim of the Mahayana and part of the propaganda used to push the Bodhisattva path instead of the "hinayana path" of the arahant.
สัพเพ สัตตา สุขีตา โหนตุ

the mountain may be heavy in and of itself, but if you're not trying to carry it it's not heavy to you- Ajaan Suwat

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Lazy_eye
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Re: Luminious mind

Postby Lazy_eye » Wed Jul 07, 2010 12:21 pm

Last edited by Lazy_eye on Wed Jul 07, 2010 1:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Lazy_eye
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Re: Luminious mind

Postby Lazy_eye » Wed Jul 07, 2010 12:42 pm


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Re: Luminious mind

Postby dhamma follower » Wed Jul 07, 2010 2:52 pm


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tiltbillings
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Re: Luminious mind

Postby tiltbillings » Wed Jul 07, 2010 3:16 pm


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jcsuperstar
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Re: Luminious mind

Postby jcsuperstar » Thu Jul 08, 2010 1:36 am

สัพเพ สัตตา สุขีตา โหนตุ

the mountain may be heavy in and of itself, but if you're not trying to carry it it's not heavy to you- Ajaan Suwat

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kc2dpt
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Re: Luminious mind

Postby kc2dpt » Thu Jul 08, 2010 1:48 am

- Peter


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jcsuperstar
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Re: Luminious mind

Postby jcsuperstar » Thu Jul 08, 2010 1:59 am

สัพเพ สัตตา สุขีตา โหนตุ

the mountain may be heavy in and of itself, but if you're not trying to carry it it's not heavy to you- Ajaan Suwat

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kc2dpt
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Re: Luminious mind

Postby kc2dpt » Thu Jul 08, 2010 2:25 am

- Peter


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Re: Luminious mind

Postby Sanghamitta » Thu Jul 08, 2010 7:57 am

I agree entirely :goodpost:
And I don't think that I am a narrow sectarian. It seems quite clear to me that the Mahayana and Theravada are completely different religions that share some symbols and a handful of concepts.
Analogous to the relationship between Judaism and Christianity.
This seems so obvious that in my view the onus is on the Mahayana to demonstrate beyond debate that their religion is the same as the Theravada. I have never seen a convincing argument to that end yet,
The going for refuge is the door of entrance to the teachings of the Buddha.

Bhikku Bodhi.

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Lazy_eye
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Re: Luminious mind

Postby Lazy_eye » Thu Jul 08, 2010 12:01 pm

A fascinating and unresolvable question, in my view. Early Mahayana, from what I understand, is quite close to Theravada -- Ven Pannasikhara, if he's around, might have something to say about this.

Also, Mahayana recognizes and incorporates the original tipitaka. The Four Noble Truths, the Eightfold Path, karma and rebirth, dependent origination, the "three marks of existence" (anicca, dukkha, anatta) are core teachings in Mahayana. Meditation practices in Zen could be described as a kind of radically condensed form of samatha-vipassana.

I agree that some later developments start to look like an altogether different religion, though it can be hard to identify a precise dividing line. The dynamic in Buddhism generally seems to be that any innovation has to be justified somehow with regard to the existing canon and the life/work of Shakyamuni Buddha. Of course, sometimes these justifications may be pure invention on the part of the innovator.

Maybe this should be a new thread?

LE

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Re: Luminious mind

Postby Sanghamitta » Thu Jul 08, 2010 1:00 pm

Well new thread or not Lazy Eye..I used the Judaism/Christianity analogy advisedly.
They have certain commonalities God..the soul...eternal life in some form. Resurrection of the dead in some form literal or not. But Christianity went on to develop a whole theology around the Trinity , Redemption etc etc. And at that point it became a new and different religion.
In the same way the Mahayana developed a whole " theology" of Buddha Nature or Buddha Dhatu and a whole pantheon of Buddhas, and a whole set of "sutras" to explain those developments and at that point became a new and different religion.
The going for refuge is the door of entrance to the teachings of the Buddha.

Bhikku Bodhi.

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Lazy_eye
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Re: Luminious mind

Postby Lazy_eye » Thu Jul 08, 2010 1:58 pm

A fair enough argument, Sanghamitta. However, Christianity entered the picture thousands of years into the history of Judaism and constituted a clear, radical break. By contrast, Mahayana originated only a few hundred years after the Buddha's paranibbana and actually not that long after Theravada itself emerged as a distinctly identifiable school.

At the time when this happened, a variety of schools and practices existed that were all based, or claimed to be based, on the Buddha's teachings. The most credible theory which I've heard concerning the Mahayana is that it developed as a kind of "back to basics" movement among monastics, focused on emulating the Buddha's journey from bodhisatta to buddha, and with a big emphasis on asceticism and seclusion. You can see this, I think, in influential texts such as Zhiyi's "Manual of Samatha, Vipassana and Dhyana Meditation". (http://www.amazon.com/Essentials-Buddhi ... 1935413007)

As we were discussing above, "buddha nature" can be connected to "luminous mind" -- though I agree that it did transform into a kind of metaphysical monster. Stephen Batchelor has an interesting talk on this subject -- he suggests a Chinese translation error was instrumental in this transformation.

Maybe the short answer is: for a Theravadin, there may be two different religions. For a Mahayanist, probably not. From an objective scholarly point of view, up for debate depending on how we interpret early developments.
Last edited by Lazy_eye on Thu Jul 08, 2010 2:06 pm, edited 2 times in total.

Sanghamitta
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Re: Luminious mind

Postby Sanghamitta » Thu Jul 08, 2010 2:04 pm

So from a Mahayana point of view the Theravada is subsumed like it or not ?

Which is of course exactly what the Hindus say about Buddhism. They accept that Buddhism is part of Hinduism because they are tolerant but unfortunately the Buddhists stubbornly insist that they are not..the schismatics.. :smile:
The going for refuge is the door of entrance to the teachings of the Buddha.

Bhikku Bodhi.

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tiltbillings
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Re: Luminious mind

Postby tiltbillings » Thu Jul 08, 2010 4:11 pm


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Lazy_eye
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Re: Luminious mind

Postby Lazy_eye » Thu Jul 08, 2010 8:06 pm

Would you say oppositionality vs orthodoxy is enough to define separate religions? Also, is oppositionality a feature exclusive to Mahayana? My understanding is that there were several schools/movements around, all of which conflicted on various points and engaged in polemics. Theravada and Mahayana agreed on some points, disagreed on others.

"Hinayana" is just an (ugly) negative way of affirming the validity of Mahayana, since it basically means "those (whoever they are) who do not accept the Mahayana sutras". Mahayana opposes those who deny Mahayana, thus Mahayana=Mahayana, it's a tautology which resolves nothing and has no use except as a rhetorical weapon. It's in no way essential to Mahayana doctrine per se.

Personally, I feel some of the later shifts within Mahayana are more radical than the Theravada/Mahayana divide. After all, in early Mahayana up through Chan we still have the basic program of sila, samadhi and panna. But by the time we get to the later Pure Land schools, self-effort is abandoned in favor of trusting the deified Amida, samadhi is reduced to a secondary practice, sila becomes an optional set of guidelines, the monastic sangha gives way to a secularized priesthood, and so on.

This seems, to me, a far more dramatic split than arguing about buddha nature, bodhicitta or sunyata, all of which have antecedents in the nikayas.
Last edited by Lazy_eye on Thu Jul 08, 2010 8:24 pm, edited 5 times in total.


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