The Danger of Rebirth

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
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Ceisiwr
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Re: The Danger of Rebirth

Post by Ceisiwr »

Mundane right view" is part the set of tools for awakening
I dont deny this, my point is most buddhists today mistake rebirth as central, as supermundane and cling to it, they dont see it as mundane and that it needs to be discarded.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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tiltbillings
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Re: The Danger of Rebirth

Post by tiltbillings »

clw_uk wrote:
As for rebirth, it was very much part of the Buddha's awakening experience.
He seen his past "abodes" not past lives

This means he seen how in the past he grasped at the aggregates as self.
Take one of the awakening texts - MN 36 would be good - that talks about "past abodes" and carefully show us that what you claim is true, please.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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Ceisiwr
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Re: The Danger of Rebirth

Post by Ceisiwr »

The householder Anathapindika became sick a third time with very strong pains which were getting worse and not easing. Again Anathapindika asked Venerable Sariputta and Venerable Ananda for assistance. When Venerable Sariputta saw him, he knew that Anathapindika was nearing death, and gave him the following instructions:

He should practice freeing himself from clinging to the six sense faculties and not attach his thoughts to them; secondly, he should practice releasing himself from dependence on the six objects and not attach his thoughts to them either. Thirdly, he should stop clinging to the connecting link between the six senses and the six sense objects, as well as to the six sense contacts, the six feelings, the six elements, the five aggregates and the four formless realms, as well as to all that is seen, heard, thought, perceived, and investigated in the mind.

Anathapindika must have followed this detailed presentation with his heart so that even as he was listening, he was already practicing in the way the wise and holy Venerable Sariputta had instructed him. At the end of the instructions, tears came to Anathapindika's eyes. The Venerable Ananda turned to him compassionately and asked him to calm himself and be at peace. But Anathapindika replied: "I cannot calm myself and be at peace, O worthy Ananda. I have served the Master and the spiritually accomplished monks for a long time, and yet I have never heard such a profound discourse."

Then Venerable Sariputta said: "Such profound talk, O householder, will not be clear enough for white-clad lay followers; it is clear enough for ascetics."

Anathapindika answered: "Venerable Sariputta, let such talks on the Dhamma be given to white-clad laity, too. There are those with just a little dust on their eyes. If they don't hear such teachings, they will be lost. Some may be able to understand."

This is the teaching of the supermundane that leads to release, notice there is no mention of rebirth at all it is about emptiness.

Notice that it is said that this isnt taught to the lay people, rebirth was taught instead.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
Element

Re: The Danger of Rebirth

Post by Element »

Chris wrote:However, you can't start at the conclusion of the Path - you start at the beginning with Generosity and Morality and go forward from there. We have all just learned to read in Primary School - no point is us quoting text books from University and implying we understand completely. Wisdom (panna) is not intellectual parroting of a definition, it is "seeing things as they really are". We are so-o-o far from that, even having wandered in Sa.msara since beginningless time.

Chris

It is best that you speak for yourself.

Morality begins with truthfulness. A truthful mind tends towards truth. Any form of untruth is darkness. The beginning of time, you do not know.
2. NOBLE & IGNOBLE WAYS OF SPEAKING

Bhikkhus, there are these eight kinds of anariyavohara (ignoble ways of speaking). What are the eight kinds? The eight kinds are:

the tendency to speak of having seen things that have not (really) been seen;
the tendency to speak of having heard things that have not (really) been heard;
the tendency to speak of having experienced things that have not (really) been experienced;
the tendency to speak of having realized things that have not (really) been realized;

the tendency to speak of having not seen things that have been seen;
the tendency to speak of having not heard things that have been heard;
the tendency to speak of having not experienced things that have been experienced;
the tendency to speak of having not realized things that have been realized.

Bhikkhus, these are the eight anariyavohara.

Bhikkhus, there are these eight kinds of ariyavohara (noble ways of speaking). What are the eight kinds? The eight kinds are:

the tendency to speak of having not seen things that have not been seen;
the tendency to speak of having not heard things that have not been heard;
the tendency to speak of having not experienced things that have not been experienced;
the tendency to speak of having not realized things that have not been realized;

the tendency to speak of having seen things that have (really) been seen;
the tendency to speak of having heard things that have (really) been heard;
the tendency to speak of having experienced things that have (really) been experienced;
the tendency to speak of having realized things that have (truly) been realized.

Bhikkhus, these are the eight ariyavohara.

2. Anguttara-Nikaya, Eights.
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Ceisiwr
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Re: The Danger of Rebirth

Post by Ceisiwr »

Tiltbillings, what is the essence of the buddhas teaching, rebirth or emptiness?

The buddha on his awakening realised that in the past all he was doing was clinging to the aggregates as a self and took them up as a self, as an abode.

He didnt look back and just saw rupa being born and dying, this is so basic dont you think for something to be realised when being enlightened?

What is the origin of identitiy? the five aggregates effected by clinging.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
Element

Re: The Danger of Rebirth

Post by Element »

tiltbillings wrote:Take one of the awakening texts - MN 36 would be good - that talks about "past abodes" and carefully show us that what you claim is true, please.
It is important we regard who the Buddha taught. For example, if the Buddha taught Brahmins, laymen or unenlightened monks, he would teach the Three Knowledges, which was his way to supercede the Three Vedas of the Brahmins.

For example, MN 36 was a discourse to a Jain.

However, Tilt, you can find the answer to your question in the Khajjaniya Sutta.

The Khajjaniya Sutta clearly explains the meaning of "past abodes" for Aryian disciples (rather than for putujanas).
Last edited by Element on Wed Feb 11, 2009 10:48 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Element

Re: The Danger of Rebirth

Post by Element »

tiltbillings wrote:Basically, you are telling gabrielbranbury that he/she is wrong.
Basically, I am telling Gabriel Branbury we have a different view.

Now, what of your speech Tilt?
Last edited by Element on Wed Feb 11, 2009 10:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Ceisiwr
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Re: The Danger of Rebirth

Post by Ceisiwr »

My i ask how those who hold that rebirth is essential to the buddhas teachings can uphold this when rebirth is taught as right view with effluents?

They said to the Buddha: "500 laywomen have died. What is their future course?" On realizing the significance, the Buddha said: "Bound with delusion & acquisitions, it seems eternal. But for one who sees, there is nothing." Ud 7.10
Sorry to steal your signature Element but I thought it contributed quite well to this discussion

Metta

:namaste:
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
Element

Re: The Danger of Rebirth

Post by Element »

Ben wrote:Can you please provide any canonical textual support for your contention that the doctrine of rebirth was taught to one class of disciple while a negation of rebirth was taught to another class of disciple.
"The ascetics and brahmans thus ministered to as the Zenith by a householder show their compassion towards him in six ways:

(i) they restrain him from evil,
(ii) they persuade him to do good,
(iii) they love him with a kind heart,
(iv) they make him hear what he has not heard,
(v) they clarify what he has already heard,
(vi) they point out the path to a heavenly state.

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .nara.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
"No, venerable sir. I'm not sinking, nor am I foundering. It's just that for a long time I have attended to the Teacher, and to the monks who inspire my heart, but never before have I heard a talk on the Dhamma like this."

"This sort of talk on the Dhamma, householder, is not given to lay people clad in white. This sort of talk on the Dhamma is given to those gone forth."

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
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Prasadachitta
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Re: The Danger of Rebirth

Post by Prasadachitta »

Throughout our day we make decisions. These decisions are based upon a paradigm of conditions which for the moment we take to be actionable. I think we can say that this paradigm is our "view". I have said this before and I will say it again. This "view" (speaking for myself here) is highly changeable and for the most part very limited. I cant (at this time) think of a single moment when the possibility of rebirth played what I would call an actionable roll in my decision making. I am comfortable with it being a possibility. The only time I am concerned about how people treat the idea of rebirth is when it makes them uncomfortable and they deny that it has any potential. I think it tends to indicate a very limited and fixed self view. From what is being said above I would not characterize Element and Clw_uk in this way. On the other hand I have some impression of people who hold to literal rebirth in a way which does seem to limit their ability to explore how things are. I I have hardly any contact with people like this though.

Metta

Gabriel
"Beautifully taught is the Lord's Dhamma, immediately apparent, timeless, of the nature of a personal invitation, progressive, to be attained by the wise, each for himself." Anguttara Nikaya V.332
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Ceisiwr
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Re: The Danger of Rebirth

Post by Ceisiwr »

The only time I am concerned about how people treat the idea of rebirth is when it makes them uncomfortable and they deny that it has any potential. I think it tends to indicate a very limited and fixed self view. From what is being said above I would not characterize Element and Clw_uk in this way.
Thank you for your understanding, sometimes i think people mistake what I say as views born from aversion which is not the case.

I hold that there cannot be rebirth because of my understanding of emptiness, not because im a modern western buddhist who is adverse to anything spiritual.

I have arrived at my current position through growth in the dhamma, not aversion.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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tiltbillings
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Re: The Danger of Rebirth

Post by tiltbillings »

clw_uk wrote:Tiltbillings, what is the essence of the buddhas teaching, rebirth or emptiness?

The buddha on his awakening realised that in the past all he was doing was clinging to the aggregates as a self and took them up as a self, as an abode.

He didnt look back and just saw rupa being born and dying, this is so basic dont you think for something to be realised when being enlightened?

What is the origin of identitiy? the five aggregates effected by clinging.
Thank you for your response, but if you want me to address your questions, please address mine to you first. That is the polite, reasonable thing to do, it would seem. Show us within MN 36 with a careful, detailed discussion that the language in MN 36 is only to be taken figuratively. or some other way than how it actually reads.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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Re: The Danger of Rebirth

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings Craig,

For what it's worth, I understand where you're coming from with this thread. My lack of participation hasn't had to do with lack of interest, merely that I've not seen much opportunity to contribute.

As with most discussion threads on rebirth, this one is abound with straw men. I think it's important for us to concentrate and listen to what others are saying, understand it is as it said, and to not conflate that with other preconceptions we might have about what such views entail.

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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Prasadachitta
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Re: The Danger of Rebirth

Post by Prasadachitta »

Hi Retro,

Who is Craig?


Gabe
"Beautifully taught is the Lord's Dhamma, immediately apparent, timeless, of the nature of a personal invitation, progressive, to be attained by the wise, each for himself." Anguttara Nikaya V.332
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Ceisiwr
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Re: The Danger of Rebirth

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"When the mind was thus concentrated, purified, bright, unblemished, rid of defilement, pliant, malleable, steady, & attained to imperturbability, I directed it to the knowledge of the passing away & reappearance of beings. I saw — by means of the divine eye, purified & surpassing the human — beings passing away & re-appearing, and I discerned how they are inferior & superior, beautiful & ugly, fortunate & unfortunate in accordance with their kamma: 'These beings — who were endowed with bad conduct of body, speech, & mind, who reviled the noble ones, held wrong views and undertook actions under the influence of wrong views — with the break-up of the body, after death, have re-appeared in the plane of deprivation, the bad destination, the lower realms, in hell. But these beings — who were endowed with good conduct of body, speech & mind, who did not revile the noble ones, who held right views and undertook actions under the influence of right views — with the break-up of the body, after death, have re-appeared in the good destinations, in the heavenly world.' Thus — by means of the divine eye, purified & surpassing the human — I saw beings passing away & re-appearing, and I discerned how they are inferior & superior, beautiful & ugly, fortunate & unfortunate in accordance with their kamma.


What is the origin of Identity, of the self?
Five aggregates effected by clinging, why does this lead to sense of self?

Clinging leads to BECOMING, birth or self. It is important to understand this first.

Here he is seeing how the there is the taking up of self, "beings fare on" means that a sense of self being born in a woeful state in accordance with kamma.

Woeful states are psychological (you can take them as real places as well if you wish.)

Remember as well there are different translations that make a lot of difference.

When the mind was thus concentrated, purified, bright, unblemished, rid of defilement, pliant, malleable, steady, & attained to imperturbability, I directed it to the knowledge of recollecting my past lives. I recollected my manifold past lives, i.e., one birth, two...five, ten...fifty, a hundred, a thousand, a hundred thousand, many eons of cosmic contraction, many eons of cosmic expansion, many eons of cosmic contraction & expansion: 'There I had such a name, belonged to such a clan, had such an appearance. Such was my food, such my experience of pleasure & pain, such the end of my life. Passing away from that state, I re-arose there. There too I had such a name, belonged to such a clan, had such an appearance. Such was my food, such my experience of pleasure & pain, such the end of my life. Passing away from that state, I re-arose here.' Thus I remembered my manifold past lives in their modes & details.

"Passing away from that state, I re-arose there"

How doeds the sense of "I" come about? The sense of I comes about through contact leading to becoming, birth or self. The new "i" arose. This happens all the time.

Also this sutta is a dicussion with a jain who holds views of self and rebirth.
Last edited by Ceisiwr on Wed Feb 11, 2009 11:28 pm, edited 2 times in total.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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