Sentience

[Sanghamitta]

I'll watch the documentary if I have time to, but your example above is not evidence of awareness but of a biologically programmed response chosen by natural selection. The sick ant could act in exactly the same way if it had no awareness at all and you'd never know the difference.[/quote]
Quite. To ascribe altruism to an invertebrate is a particularly extreme variety of anthropomorphism. Dr Dawkins would spit out his Darjeeling.[/quote]

The thing is, you could build a robotic ant which responds to stimuli in exactly the same way as a biological ant so that a casual observer would not know the difference.

As for mosquitoes or just normal house flies, we too have inbuilt responses chosen by natural selection. Mosquitoes and house flies spread disease and we are evolved from humans who knew that and who acted accordingly. On the other hand, being subjectively self aware we are able to question our actions and even the intention that motivates them. We can judge a situation and override our instincts. We can turn on a fan to discourage mosquitoes or open a window to let out a fly. That's the difference between us and ants. Some instincts are pretty deep rooted though, like the instinct of survival. If the aforementioned lion runs at me and I have a gun (I am a game keeper which is why I have one) then I am not going to let the lion maul me any more than the lion would let me harm it without raising a paw. If that means I can never be a Buddhist then it's probably just as well I asked this question at the beginning and found out early![/quote]
So the above reference was to a situation if you WERE a gamekeeper ? I thought that you were stating that you were, in an act of commendable honesty in terms of a Buddhist Website where cyber lynchings would be likely to follow

[Annapurna]

Sanghamitta, if you speak to beginners like Riverbend, terms like sanna and sankhara will make no sense. Could you add an explanation or link to those?

Khandas or "aggregates":
http://what-buddha-said.net/library/Bud ... tm#khandha" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Khandha: the 5 'groups of existence' or 'groups of clinging' upādānakhandha alternative renderings: aggregates or clusters, categories of clinging's objects. These are the 5 aspects in which the Buddha has summed up all the physical and mental phenomena of existence, and which appear to the ignorant man as his ego, or personality, to wit:

1 the materiality group khandha rūpa-khandha,
2 the feeling group vedanā-khandha,
3 the perception group saññā-khandha,
4 the mental-construction group sankhāra-khandha,
5 the consciousness-group viññāna-khandha
...

Mike[/quote]

Thank you, Mike.

[Sanghamitta]

So Annapurna where would you see "thoughts" and " mental" processes fitting into the schemata that Miken66 kindly provided ?

[Annapurna]

No I cant give you a straightforward answer Annapurna. Because your question is meaningless as it stands.

It is actually very meaningful, because you resist the idea that an octopus can have # 4 =thought-processes.

What is clear is that no invertebrate has the neurological equipment for thought processes which was a key part of brennanmangs list of five qualities.

what do you mean by "memory " or "intentional activity " ? And how would they relate to cognitions ?

Here:

maze and problem-solving experiments have shown that they do have both short- and long-term memory.

In laboratory experiments, octopuses can be readily trained to distinguish between different shapes and patterns. They have been reported to practice observational learning[10]

Training is only possible with a memory.

Intentional actions:

Octopuses have also been observed in what some have described as play: repeatedly releasing bottles or toys into a circular current in their aquariums and then catching them.[11]

This requires intention and decisions, both are only possible with thoughts.

Based on observation, the mimic octopus may decide which animal to impersonate depending on local predators. For example, when the octopus was being attacked by damselfish, it was observed that the octopus appeared as a banded sea snake, a damselfish predator.

[Sanghamitta]

So Annapurna where would you see "thoughts" and " mental" processes fitting into the schemata that Miken66 kindly provided ?

You are leaping too far ahead in the discussion and missing out a whole section of the debate.
In order to make sense of my reply about Octopuses and thought processes can we first start by addressing the above, we can then move on the the question of human and non human learning processes. Lets start with the khandas.
Where are "thoughts" to be found in the khandas ? lets asume for discussion purposes that we are talking about human thought.

[Riverbend]

I thought that you were stating that you were, in an act of commendable honesty in terms of a Buddhist Website where cyber lynchings would be likely to follow

I don't think I meant gamekeeper! Who are the fellows who drive around African reserves making sure the animals are okay and that poachers are kept at bay?

[Sanghamitta]

I think you meant Gamewardens Riverbend.. The chap that featues in Lady Chatterley is a gamekeeper..

[Sanghamitta]

OK Annapurna I sense that we are not going to get too far with a discussion of the khandas..lets try something else.
I think that there is a fascinating discussion to be had about the interrelationship between the khandas and physiological models of functioning but PeterB my husband is far more adept than me at exploring that.* So lets leave that aside.

*Incidentally he is currently involved in a project which is looking at the relationship between brain imagery and cognitive functioning as the basis of a possible whole new look at a therapeutic approach to repetitive negative cognition's..but its very early days.

Do you accept that earthworms are sentient beings ?

[Annapurna]

So Annapurna where would you see "thoughts" and " mental" processes fitting into the schemata that Miken66 kindly provided ?

Are you asking because you don't know, or are you testing and probing?

[Sanghamitta]

Lets put aside possible motivations and just exchange views.


Do you accept that earthworms are sentient ?

[Annapurna]

OK Annapurna I sense that we are not going to get too far with a discussion of the khandas..lets try something else.

You don't have to try anything with me, Sanghamitta, you're not my teacher...

You seem to assume that the lack of a reply is tantamount to not knowing an answer.

But many of here have jobs, and can't spend their whole day in front of the computer throwing out one post after the other.

Do you accept that earthworms are sentient beings ?

Who, me?

[Sanghamitta]

Yes Annapurna, Do you accept that earthworms are sentient beings ?

[Annapurna]

I already explained animals and humans are sentient.

An earth worm is an animal.

[tiltbillings]

Moderator note: Off-topic stuff has been removed. Please stay on topic with no further meta-discussions.

[octathlon]

Do you accept that earthworms are sentient beings ?

I, for one, am not confident of that... but I accept that they could be. Either way, I have no desire to kill them, so that's not a problem. Brown recluse spiders on the other hand, I still feel the urge to kill (only if they are inside my house). This is from fear, because I have been bitten by one before and it's really not good.

Anyway...
From dictionary.com

sen·tient
–adjective
1.
having the power of perception by the senses; conscious.
2.
characterized by sensation and consciousness.
---------
con·scious
–adjective
1.
aware of one's own existence, sensations, thoughts, surroundings, etc.

I imagine they do feel sensation, but that would also include the aforementioned amoebas and bacteria, which respond to stimuli, and were said not to be sentient.

Also, I suspect that the definition of 'consciousness' from the dictionary might not correspond with the Buddhist sense of 'consciousness', which I am still learning about. So, I sympathize with Riverbend's thoughts and confusion on all this.