"whoever is full of impurity ... remove him like rubbish"

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Lombardi4
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"whoever is full of impurity ... remove him like rubbish"

Post by Lombardi4 »

"As a cesspool filled over a number of years is difficult to clean, similarly, whoever is full of impurity is difficult to make pure. Whoever you know to be such, bhikkhus, bent on worldliness, having wrong desires, wrong thoughts, wrong behavior and resort, being completely united avoid him, sweep him out like dirt, remove him like rubbish. Winnow like chaff the non-recluses. Having ejected those of wrong desires, of wrong behavior and resort, be pure and mindful, dwelling with those who are pure. Being united and prudent you will make an end to suffering."

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .irel.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;


What is your interpretation of the above-quoted sutta? Should we not greet or speak to people who are "full of impurity"? Or am I misunderstanding the meaning of the sutta?
Last edited by Lombardi4 on Thu Jul 08, 2010 3:21 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Sanghamitta
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Re: whoever is full of impurity ... remove him like rubbish

Post by Sanghamitta »

I think there are a couple of possibilities here Stefan..is it authentic ? Is the translation correct ?
If the answer to both these questions is yes then we have a problem here. Because modern sensibilities would put us at odds with the Buddha.
The going for refuge is the door of entrance to the teachings of the Buddha.

Bhikku Bodhi.
Lombardi4
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Re: whoever is full of impurity ... remove him like rubbish

Post by Lombardi4 »

Right, I just read this description of the sutta which states:

"The monks are encouraged to avoid monks who conduct their lives in unwholesome ways."
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... index.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

So I guess it refers only to monks.

Still, the question remains.
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Re: whoever is full of impurity ... remove him like rubbish

Post by Sanghamitta »

No way to treat even errant monks imo. " Sweep him out like dirt, remove him like rubbish " sounds more like the Taliban.
The going for refuge is the door of entrance to the teachings of the Buddha.

Bhikku Bodhi.
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OcTavO
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Re: "whoever is full of impurity ... remove him like rubbish"

Post by OcTavO »

The teachings strongly advocate skillful relationships and friendships. (See: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/ptf/dham ... ttata.html)

But imo we can't take the avoidance of unskillful or evil people to such an extreme that we breach the components of right speech and right action. I think the sutta you quoted is simply advocating the polite, skillful avoidance of those unhelpful to the path, not blatant rudeness or expulsion.
Lombardi4
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Re: "whoever is full of impurity ... remove him like rubbish"

Post by Lombardi4 »

OcTavO wrote:The teachings strongly advocate skillful relationships and friendships. (See: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/ptf/dham ... ttata.html)

But imo we can't take the avoidance of unskillful or evil people to such an extreme that we breach the components of right speech and right action. I think the sutta you quoted is simply advocating the polite, skillful avoidance of those unhelpful to the path, not blatant rudeness or expulsion.
Thanks. I completely agree with you.
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Re: "whoever is full of impurity ... remove him like rubbish"

Post by Sanghamitta »

Gloss over it how you like OcTaVo..If any of us advocated sweeping someone off the forum like rubbish because they were not living up to our standards we would be suspended and quite rightly.
The going for refuge is the door of entrance to the teachings of the Buddha.

Bhikku Bodhi.
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OcTavO
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Re: "whoever is full of impurity ... remove him like rubbish"

Post by OcTavO »

Sanghamitta wrote:Gloss over it how you like OcTaVo..If any of us advocated sweeping someone off the forum like rubbish because they were not living up to our standards we would be suspended and quite rightly.
But is that really what the Sutta is advocating? I see nothing in it that suggests we do such "sweeping like rubbish" actions in an outward manner? I think the teaching is talking about affecting an internal comprehension of who is and isn't helpful to be around. I think it's also important to note that it's addressing monastics, not the laity.
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kc2dpt
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Re: whoever is full of impurity ... remove him like rubbish

Post by kc2dpt »

Sanghamitta wrote:modern sensibilities would put us at odds with the Buddha.
It is not uncommon, in my experience, to find modern sensibilities at odds with the Buddha. The Buddha of the scriptures was not as much of a fluffy bunny as some modern spiritual teachers would suggest.
Sanghamitta wrote:If any of us advocated sweeping someone off the forum like rubbish because they were not living up to our standards we would be suspended and quite rightly.
I have been a moderator of more than one Buddhist forum and I can tell you with certainty that people were "swept off the forum" all the time. However, it was never done lightly nor quickly but only after much consideration. Likewise, I don't expect the Sangha was too rough with each other over minor transgressions, but rather only when someone repeatedly showed themselves to be stubborn and untrainable.

As for the above sutta quote...

"After I am gone, the monk Channa should be given the brahma penalty."
"What, lord, is the brahma penalty?"
"Channa may say what he wants, Ananda, but he is not to be spoken to, instructed, or admonished by the monks."
- DN 16

Here we can see a specific example of "sweeping out the rubbish". And yet the story does have a happy ending. Cv.XI tells of how news of the brahma-penalty shocked Channa to his senses. As a result, he changed his ways and eventually became an arahant.

I am reminded of another sutta... AN 4.111.
Kesi the horse trainer: "If a tamable horse does not submit either to a mild training or to a harsh training or to a mild and harsh training, lord, then I kill it."
Buddha: "If a tamable person does not submit either to a mild training or to a harsh training or to a mild & harsh training, then I kill him, Kesi."
- Peter

Be heedful and you will accomplish your goal.
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Re: "whoever is full of impurity ... remove him like rubbish"

Post by Sanghamitta »

How are we to understand that "kill" Peter. Clearly it is not literal.
I take your point entirely about the Buddha not being a fluffy bunny. I am quite sure that he would have scared the bejesus out of anyone with New Age leanings.
The going for refuge is the door of entrance to the teachings of the Buddha.

Bhikku Bodhi.
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kc2dpt
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Re: "whoever is full of impurity ... remove him like rubbish"

Post by kc2dpt »

Stefan wrote:What is your interpretation of the above-quoted sutta? Should we not greet or speak to people who are "full of impurity"? Or am I misunderstanding the meaning of the sutta?
I interpret in in light of other suttas which speak of admirable friends, or wise friends. We should strive to associate with admirable people, with wise people - for they will help us become better people. We should strive to avoid unadmirable people and unwise people - for they will drag us down and help us people worse people.

One should also, in my opinion, remember the analogy of being stuck in the mud. If you are stuck in the mud you do not grab on to another person stuck in the mud but rather grab on to someone firmly on dry ground. Similarly, if you are to help someone stuck in the mud it is best to first ensure you yourself are on firm ground.
- Peter

Be heedful and you will accomplish your goal.
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Modus.Ponens
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Re: "whoever is full of impurity ... remove him like rubbish"

Post by Modus.Ponens »

Sanghamitta wrote:How are we to understand that "kill" Peter. Clearly it is not literal.
I take your point entirely about the Buddha not being a fluffy bunny. I am quite sure that he would have scared the bejesus out of anyone with New Age leanings.
"But it's not proper for our Blessed One to take life! And yet the Blessed One just said, 'I kill him, Kesi.'"

"It is true, Kesi, that it's not proper for a Tathagata to take life. But if a tamable person does not submit either to a mild training or to a harsh training or to a mild & harsh training, then the Tathagata does not regard him as being worth speaking to or admonishing. His knowledgeable fellows in the holy life do not regard him as being worth speaking to or admonishing. This is what it means to be totally destroyed in the Doctrine & Discipline, when the Tathagata does not regard one as being worth speaking to or admonishing, and one's knowledgeable fellows in the holy life do not regard one as being worth speaking to or admonishing."
'This is peace, this is exquisite — the resolution of all fabrications; the relinquishment of all acquisitions; the ending of craving; dispassion; cessation; Unbinding.' - Jhana Sutta
Anicca
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Re: "whoever is full of impurity ... remove him like rubbish"

Post by Anicca »

Howdy Sanghamitta!
Sanghamitta wrote:Gloss over it how you like OcTaVo..If any of us advocated sweeping someone off the forum like rubbish because they were not living up to our standards we would be suspended and quite rightly.
I seriously doubt that if i went to the lounge and announced that you were placed on my foe list - the mods would do nothing - it is an automatic feature built into to the system to sweep out the rubbish for us. Please correct me if i am wrong about this.
What are my Friends and Foes lists?
If you add a user to your foes list, any posts they make will be hidden by default.
Swept away - no fuss - no muss.

Metta
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kc2dpt
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Re: "whoever is full of impurity ... remove him like rubbish"

Post by kc2dpt »

Sanghamitta wrote:How are we to understand that "kill" Peter. Clearly it is not literal.
That's why I posted the link. It is an invitation for you to read it for yourself.
- Peter

Be heedful and you will accomplish your goal.
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OcTavO
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Re: "whoever is full of impurity ... remove him like rubbish"

Post by OcTavO »

Anicca wrote: Swept away - no fuss - no muss.
Yes, not to mention no Buddhist ethics broken and no feelings hurt...
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