"whoever is full of impurity ... remove him like rubbish"
Re: "whoever is full of impurity ... remove him like rubbish"
Once on an Uposatha day, the Buddha sat silently throughout the whole night in front of the assembly of monks. When the morning dawned, he only said: "This assembly is impure." Thereupon Moggallana surveyed with his mind the entire assembly from monk to monk and saw that one monk was entirely corrupted. He went towards him and asked him to leave. When that monk did not move though asked thrice, Moggallana took him by the arm, led him out of the hall and bolted the door. Then he begged the Exalted One to recite the Rules of Monastic Discipline (Patimokkha), as the assembly was now pure again. (A. VIII, 20)
Re: "whoever is full of impurity ... remove him like rubbish"
Sounds harsh and all, but think of the abuse and corruption in the Catholic Church. Maybe its leaders would have done well to "remove the rubbish".
Re: "whoever is full of impurity ... remove him like rubbish"
The Buddha has consistently advise his followers not to associate with fools. It's a good advice that has help me avoid unnecessary problems.
Re: "whoever is full of impurity ... remove him like rubbish"
Very good point Lazy_eye. Monks rely on the generosity of lay people to support them and a bad monk can jeopardize the integrity of the entire monastics and everyone may suffer. It is wise to simply remove him and it might even do him some good since he'll have to contemplate his actions and give up his wrong deeds if he ever wants to return.Lazy_eye wrote:Sounds harsh and all, but think of the abuse and corruption in the Catholic Church. Maybe its leaders would have done well to "remove the rubbish".
Re: "whoever is full of impurity ... remove him like rubbish"
The reference to a hell-realm surely offers a significant contextual clue... but we need the text. Without the Pali, this thread is of little use.
Re: "whoever is full of impurity ... remove him like rubbish"
Why do monks wear robes? Because they are representatives of the Buddha and the Dhamma.
If you are a monk, do you want anyone to misrepresent the Buddha and his teachings? If you answer yes, then what is said in the sutta mentioned in the opening post is perfectly understandable.
If you are a monk, do you want anyone to misrepresent the Buddha and his teachings? If you answer yes, then what is said in the sutta mentioned in the opening post is perfectly understandable.
- jcsuperstar
- Posts: 1915
- Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 5:15 am
- Location: alaska
- Contact:
Re: "whoever is full of impurity ... remove him like rubbish"
i have no idea how this could be interpreted to be anything Taliban like. nor against our modern sensibilities.
we have these very same ideas in the west "birds of a feather flock together" etc
we have these very same ideas in the west "birds of a feather flock together" etc
สัพเพ สัตตา สุขีตา โหนตุ
the mountain may be heavy in and of itself, but if you're not trying to carry it it's not heavy to you- Ajaan Suwat
the mountain may be heavy in and of itself, but if you're not trying to carry it it's not heavy to you- Ajaan Suwat
-
- Posts: 1614
- Joined: Wed Jul 29, 2009 9:21 am
- Location: By the River Thames near London.
Re: "whoever is full of impurity ... remove him like rubbish"
My point. It is very difficult to read this in translation without projecting all sorts of stuff from the western psyche onto it.Sobeh wrote:The reference to a hell-realm surely offers a significant contextual clue... but we need the text. Without the Pali, this thread is of little use.
This may take the form of imputing an emotional content that the Buddha had in fact transcended. Or in a way worse, imputing that emotional content and then justifying it...
The going for refuge is the door of entrance to the teachings of the Buddha.
Bhikku Bodhi.
Bhikku Bodhi.
Re: "whoever is full of impurity ... remove him like rubbish"
Hello all,
Here is another translation by Sister Upalavanna plus the original Pali version.
6. Dhammacariya Sutta. -
Living according to the Teaching
274. Living according to the Teaching is said to be the ideal, and it is living the holy life.
And there are the homeless too who lead the holy life.
275. There are the noisy, who hurt wild animals,
Their life is evil growing in demerit
276. There is the deluded bhikkhu, fond of strife.
He does not know the Teaching of the Enlightened One.
277. Those that deludedly hurt the developed,
Do not know what is evil and what takes them to loss.
278. Going to loss, going from womb to womb and from dark to dark,
Such bhikkhus later come to unpleasantness.
279. If there be such ones, like a cess pool filled up for one year,
It is very difficult to clean them.
280. If you know of such worldly bhikkhus,
With evil desires, evil thoughts and evil passtures, ----
281. All of you get together and dispel him,
Turn out the impure, throw out the rubbish
282. Therefore expel the non-recluse in the guise of a recluse,
Expel the evil desires and the evil pastures
283. It is suitable that the pure should live with the pure
Be united and clever in this manner and make an end of unpleasantness.
http://metta.lk/tipitaka/2Sutta-Pitaka/ ... gga-e.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
2. 6 Kapilasuttaü
276. Dhammacieyaü brahmacieyaü etadàhu vasuttamaü,
Pabbajitopi ce hoti agàrasmà anagàriyaü.
277. So ce mukharajàtiko vihesàbhirato mago,
Jãvitaü tassa pàpiyo rajaü vaóóheti attano.
[BJT Page 86] [\x 86/]
278. Kalahàbhirato bhikkhu mohadhammena àvaño,
Akkhatampi na jànàti dhammà buddhena desitaü.
279. Vihesaü bhàvitattànaü avijjàya purakkhato,
Saükilesaü na jànàti maggaü nirayagàminaü.
280. Vinàpàtaü samàpanno gabbhà gabbhaü tamà tamaü,
Save tàdisako bhikkhu pecca dukkhaü nigacchati.
281. Guthakåpo yathà assa samapuõõo gaõavassiko,
Yo ca evaråpo assa dubbisodho hi sàïgaõo.
282. Yaü evaråpaü jànàtha bhikkhavo gehanissitaü,
Pàpicchaü pàpasaïkappaü pàpaàcàragocaraü.
[PTS Page 050] [\q 50/]
283. Sabbe samaggà hutvàna abhinibbijjayàtha naü,
Kàraõóavaü1 niddhamatha kasambuü càpakassatha.
284. Tato palàpe vàhetha assamaõe samaõamànãne,
Niddhamitvàna pàpicche pàpaàcàragocare.
285. Suddhà suddhehi saüvàsaü kappayavho patissatà,
Tato samaggà nipakà dukkhassantaü karissathàti.
Kapilasuttaü niññhitaü.
http://metta.lk/tipitaka/2Sutta-Pitaka/ ... gga-p.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
with mettq
Chris
Here is another translation by Sister Upalavanna plus the original Pali version.
6. Dhammacariya Sutta. -
Living according to the Teaching
274. Living according to the Teaching is said to be the ideal, and it is living the holy life.
And there are the homeless too who lead the holy life.
275. There are the noisy, who hurt wild animals,
Their life is evil growing in demerit
276. There is the deluded bhikkhu, fond of strife.
He does not know the Teaching of the Enlightened One.
277. Those that deludedly hurt the developed,
Do not know what is evil and what takes them to loss.
278. Going to loss, going from womb to womb and from dark to dark,
Such bhikkhus later come to unpleasantness.
279. If there be such ones, like a cess pool filled up for one year,
It is very difficult to clean them.
280. If you know of such worldly bhikkhus,
With evil desires, evil thoughts and evil passtures, ----
281. All of you get together and dispel him,
Turn out the impure, throw out the rubbish
282. Therefore expel the non-recluse in the guise of a recluse,
Expel the evil desires and the evil pastures
283. It is suitable that the pure should live with the pure
Be united and clever in this manner and make an end of unpleasantness.
http://metta.lk/tipitaka/2Sutta-Pitaka/ ... gga-e.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
2. 6 Kapilasuttaü
276. Dhammacieyaü brahmacieyaü etadàhu vasuttamaü,
Pabbajitopi ce hoti agàrasmà anagàriyaü.
277. So ce mukharajàtiko vihesàbhirato mago,
Jãvitaü tassa pàpiyo rajaü vaóóheti attano.
[BJT Page 86] [\x 86/]
278. Kalahàbhirato bhikkhu mohadhammena àvaño,
Akkhatampi na jànàti dhammà buddhena desitaü.
279. Vihesaü bhàvitattànaü avijjàya purakkhato,
Saükilesaü na jànàti maggaü nirayagàminaü.
280. Vinàpàtaü samàpanno gabbhà gabbhaü tamà tamaü,
Save tàdisako bhikkhu pecca dukkhaü nigacchati.
281. Guthakåpo yathà assa samapuõõo gaõavassiko,
Yo ca evaråpo assa dubbisodho hi sàïgaõo.
282. Yaü evaråpaü jànàtha bhikkhavo gehanissitaü,
Pàpicchaü pàpasaïkappaü pàpaàcàragocaraü.
[PTS Page 050] [\q 50/]
283. Sabbe samaggà hutvàna abhinibbijjayàtha naü,
Kàraõóavaü1 niddhamatha kasambuü càpakassatha.
284. Tato palàpe vàhetha assamaõe samaõamànãne,
Niddhamitvàna pàpicche pàpaàcàragocare.
285. Suddhà suddhehi saüvàsaü kappayavho patissatà,
Tato samaggà nipakà dukkhassantaü karissathàti.
Kapilasuttaü niññhitaü.
http://metta.lk/tipitaka/2Sutta-Pitaka/ ... gga-p.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
with mettq
Chris
---The trouble is that you think you have time---
---Worry is the Interest, paid in advance, on a debt you may never owe---
---It's not what happens to you in life that is important ~ it's what you do with it ---
---Worry is the Interest, paid in advance, on a debt you may never owe---
---It's not what happens to you in life that is important ~ it's what you do with it ---
Re: "whoever is full of impurity ... remove him like rubbish"
6. Dhammacariyasuttaṃ
276.
Dhammacariyaṃ brahmacariyaṃ, etadāhu vasuttamaṃ;
Pabbajitopi ce hoti, agārā anagāriyaṃ.
277.
So ce mukharajātiko, vihesābhirato mago;
Jīvitaṃ tassa pāpiyo, rajaṃ vaḍḍheti attano.
278.
Kalahābhirato bhikkhu, mohadhammena āvuto;
Akkhātampi na jānāti, dhammaṃ buddhena desitaṃ.
279.
Vihesaṃ bhāvitattānaṃ, avijjāya purakkhato;
Saṃkilesaṃ na jānāti, maggaṃ nirayagāminaṃ.
280.
Vinipātaṃ samāpanno, gabbhā gabbhaṃ tamā tamaṃ;
Sa ve tādisako bhikkhu, pecca dukkhaṃ nigacchati.
281.
Gūthakūpo yathā assa, sampuṇṇo gaṇavassiko;
Yo ca evarūpo assa, dubbisodho hi sāṅgaṇo.
282.
Yaṃ evarūpaṃ jānātha, bhikkhavo gehanissitaṃ;
Pāpicchaṃ pāpasaṅkappaṃ, pāpaācāragocaraṃ.
283.
Sabbe samaggā hutvāna, abhinibbajjiyātha [abhinibbajjayātha (sī. pī. a. ni. 8.10)] naṃ;
Kāraṇḍavaṃ [kāraṇḍaṃ va (syā. ka.) a. ni. 8.10] niddhamatha, kasambuṃ apakassatha [avakassatha (sī. syā. ka.)].
284.
Tato palāpe [palāse (ka.)] vāhetha, assamaṇe samaṇamānine;
Niddhamitvāna pāpicche, pāpaācāragocare.
285.
Suddhā suddhehi saṃvāsaṃ, kappayavho patissatā;
Tato samaggā nipakā, dukkhassantaṃ karissathāti.
Dhammacariyasuttaṃ [kapilasuttaṃ (aṭṭha.)] chaṭṭhaṃ niṭṭhitaṃ.
276.
Dhammacariyaṃ brahmacariyaṃ, etadāhu vasuttamaṃ;
Pabbajitopi ce hoti, agārā anagāriyaṃ.
277.
So ce mukharajātiko, vihesābhirato mago;
Jīvitaṃ tassa pāpiyo, rajaṃ vaḍḍheti attano.
278.
Kalahābhirato bhikkhu, mohadhammena āvuto;
Akkhātampi na jānāti, dhammaṃ buddhena desitaṃ.
279.
Vihesaṃ bhāvitattānaṃ, avijjāya purakkhato;
Saṃkilesaṃ na jānāti, maggaṃ nirayagāminaṃ.
280.
Vinipātaṃ samāpanno, gabbhā gabbhaṃ tamā tamaṃ;
Sa ve tādisako bhikkhu, pecca dukkhaṃ nigacchati.
281.
Gūthakūpo yathā assa, sampuṇṇo gaṇavassiko;
Yo ca evarūpo assa, dubbisodho hi sāṅgaṇo.
282.
Yaṃ evarūpaṃ jānātha, bhikkhavo gehanissitaṃ;
Pāpicchaṃ pāpasaṅkappaṃ, pāpaācāragocaraṃ.
283.
Sabbe samaggā hutvāna, abhinibbajjiyātha [abhinibbajjayātha (sī. pī. a. ni. 8.10)] naṃ;
Kāraṇḍavaṃ [kāraṇḍaṃ va (syā. ka.) a. ni. 8.10] niddhamatha, kasambuṃ apakassatha [avakassatha (sī. syā. ka.)].
284.
Tato palāpe [palāse (ka.)] vāhetha, assamaṇe samaṇamānine;
Niddhamitvāna pāpicche, pāpaācāragocare.
285.
Suddhā suddhehi saṃvāsaṃ, kappayavho patissatā;
Tato samaggā nipakā, dukkhassantaṃ karissathāti.
Dhammacariyasuttaṃ [kapilasuttaṃ (aṭṭha.)] chaṭṭhaṃ niṭṭhitaṃ.
- Goofaholix
- Posts: 4029
- Joined: Sun Nov 15, 2009 3:49 am
- Location: New Zealand
Re: "whoever is full of impurity ... remove him like rubbish"
The passage is abviously addressed to monks about monks who are not meeting the required standard. The vinaya clearly explains which offences result in expulsion so I assume this passage is referring to those.
I don't see any relavence to lay people or internet forums here.
I don't see any relavence to lay people or internet forums here.
Pronouns (no self / not self)
“Peace is within oneself to be found in the same place as agitation and suffering. It is not found in a forest or on a hilltop, nor is it given by a teacher. Where you experience suffering, you can also find freedom from suffering. Trying to run away from suffering is actually to run toward it.”
― Ajahn Chah
“Peace is within oneself to be found in the same place as agitation and suffering. It is not found in a forest or on a hilltop, nor is it given by a teacher. Where you experience suffering, you can also find freedom from suffering. Trying to run away from suffering is actually to run toward it.”
― Ajahn Chah
-
- Posts: 1614
- Joined: Wed Jul 29, 2009 9:21 am
- Location: By the River Thames near London.
Re: "whoever is full of impurity ... remove him like rubbish"
That was rather my point. I think if we are going to introduce thread topics we need to use some care in contextualising them.
Simply to announce on a public website that the Buddha has apparantly suggested throwing people out like rubbish..without a wider context, risks misunderstanding to say the least.
Simply to announce on a public website that the Buddha has apparantly suggested throwing people out like rubbish..without a wider context, risks misunderstanding to say the least.
The going for refuge is the door of entrance to the teachings of the Buddha.
Bhikku Bodhi.
Bhikku Bodhi.
Re: "whoever is full of impurity ... remove him like rubbish"
I actually did that in post #3:Sanghamitta wrote:That was rather my point. I think if we are going to introduce thread topics we need to use some care in contextualising them.
Simply to announce on a public website that the Buddha has apparantly suggested throwing people out like rubbish..without a wider context, risks misunderstanding to say the least.
Stefan wrote:Right, I just read this description of the sutta which states:
"The monks are encouraged to avoid monks who conduct their lives in unwholesome ways."
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... index.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
So I guess it refers only to monks.
Still, the question remains.
-
- Posts: 1614
- Joined: Wed Jul 29, 2009 9:21 am
- Location: By the River Thames near London.
Re: "whoever is full of impurity ... remove him like rubbish"
Nothing personal Stefan.
I think it highlights one of the drawbacks of an internet forum. And such forums are very much a force for good too.
You see in a Q and A session in a temple or meditation centre the context of any given verse of any sutta or commentary would quickly be established.
I think it highlights one of the drawbacks of an internet forum. And such forums are very much a force for good too.
You see in a Q and A session in a temple or meditation centre the context of any given verse of any sutta or commentary would quickly be established.
The going for refuge is the door of entrance to the teachings of the Buddha.
Bhikku Bodhi.
Bhikku Bodhi.
Re: "whoever is full of impurity ... remove him like rubbish"
Actually, I don't think it does. The question was:Stefan wrote:I actually did that in post #3... Still, the question remains.
"Should we not greet or speak to people who are "full of impurity"? Or am I misunderstanding the meaning of the sutta?"
'We' as a class doesn't apply in this case; if this passage is for monks and relates to Vinaya on the matter of monks who ought to be expelled, then 'we' as the larger Sangha (or merely as a portion of the internet-using Buddhist community at large) aren't to use this Sutta as a guide to Sila. It's for monks, and solely refers to administrating the monastic community in the face of insincerity. Such a monk as described in this Sutta could easily make a bad name for the Sangha, a serious offense affecting the very longevity of the Dhamma, and so it is that they are to be discarded and expelled.