Sanghamitta wrote:As lay people we don't have to choose one or the other. We can read Suttas and practice meditation and the rest of the Eightfold Path AND do the things posited in the OP.
Agree 100%.
Sanghamitta wrote:As lay people we don't have to choose one or the other. We can read Suttas and practice meditation and the rest of the Eightfold Path AND do the things posited in the OP.
Im not sure what your point is.chownah wrote:If you find nothing wrong with living a "normal" life and find it completely fulfilling then why are you wasting your time reading Suttas?....why not just go out there and live that completely fulfilling life?
http://www.dhammaweb.net/Tipitaka/read.php?id=107" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;‘Good, Gotama, wait! Other than bhikkhus, bhikkhunis and lay disciples of Gotama, who wear white clothes and lead the holy life. Is there a single lay disciple, who wears white clothes, leads the holy life, while partaking sensual pleasures, and doing the work in the dispensation has dispelled doubts. Has become confident of what should and should not be done, and does not need a teacher any more in the dispensation of the Teacher. Vaccha, not one, not one hundred, not two hundred, not three hundred, not four hundred, not five hundred. There are many more lay disciples of mine, wearing white clothes leading the holy life, while partaking sensual pleasures and doing the work in the dispensation have dispelled doubts Have become confident of what should and should not be done and do not need a teacher any more.’ -- MN 73
I never said I found my life "completely fulfilling."chownah wrote:If you find nothing wrong with living a "normal" life and find it completely fulfilling then -
Because I have learned a lot from reading them.why are you wasting your time reading Suttas?....
IMO, we should start from where we are , not from where we think it's good to be. This is part of our conditioning to always look for what is "good" vs "bad". Nothing is inherently good or bad. The various desires in our mind is the sole responsible for the conflict.mettafuture wrote:What's wrong with going to school, getting a degree, working hard to earn a stable income, starting a family, enjoying the good, and learning how to tolerate the bad? Is the "worldly life" really that bad? This is the question that's been floating through my head lately.
This may be interpreted in two ways:bodom wrote:I find it ironic that those who are the most critical of lay practice, who seem to think that progress is only possible if one is a world renouncing monastic, are householder's themselves.
And I find it ironic that those who believe renunciation is unnecessary are those deeply involved with the world and sense pleasures.bodom wrote:I find it ironic that those who are the most critical of lay practice, who seem to think that progress is only possible if one is a world renouncing monastic, are householder's themselves.
I agree that renunciation is key, but even with renunciation there is still a reliance. If only indirectly all a monk's requisites rely on money being used somewhere in the chain of events. They may not drive but still rely on transportation (ever moreso in this day and age) - etc.Mukunda wrote:And I find it ironic that those who believe renunciation is unnecessary are those deeply involved with the world and sense pleasures.bodom wrote:I find it ironic that those who are the most critical of lay practice, who seem to think that progress is only possible if one is a world renouncing monastic, are householder's themselves.
No irony there. I could be wrong but I dont believe you are ordained Mukunda. If you believe renunciation so key to realization why not ordain? What are you holding on to? If practicing as a householder is so inferior to practicing as a Bhikkhu why waste your time? If you are unable to ordain due to responsibilities, circumstances etc. why not follow the advice the Buddha gave to householder's in similar situationsto the best of your ability? Why such insistence on renunciation? Of course it is the ideal way and strongly recommended by the Buddha but it is not the only way to practice. Renunciation of unwholesome mental states is far more important than renunciation of material things. As the sutta I quoted above states there were many, many householder's "leading the holy life,partaking of sensual pleasure's" and still attaining stream entry.Mukunda wrote:And I find it ironic that those who believe renunciation is unnecessary are those deeply involved with the world and sense pleasures.