Sentience

[Sanghamitta]

Clearly my input into this discussion was unhelpful so I shall withdraw.

[PeterB]

Sentience in Buddhism is not defined by secondary characteristics such as form or from abstract concepts like intelligence. It is that state of self awareness that is prior to the arising of the khandas.
For pragmatic reasons bacteria and viruses and the plant kingdom are regarded as not possessing sentience and all multi celled organisms are. But this is not a scientific classification and will not yield much in the way of consistency if pushed too far.
The Buddha was not dealing with taxonomic divisions.

[PeterB]

As someone said in this thread, a line must be drawn.

And as was said, the line is humans and animals including insects, and not plants or bacteria or viruses. It's a very simple and clear line and I don't understand why people find this so difficult.

I was wondering where that line is and, more specifically, what lies just either side of it. Not because I am interested in abstractions but because I want to get it right.

If you want to know where the real line is I will tell you: it's in your mind. On one side of the line are actions motivated by greed, hatred, and delusion and on the other side of the line are actions not motivated by these. Thus a man can unknowingly kill an animal (like running over an unseen mouse with one's car) and he doesn't create suffering for himself whereas a man can wave his arms around thinking "I hope I hit and injure all the ghosts and spirits in this room" and even though the room is empty he creates suffering for himself.

That is why I wanted to get to the bottom of exactly what sentience is.

I think this is a red herring, that getting to the bottom of this will not lead you closer to ending suffering.

This post actually nailed it early on in the thread. There is no standard definition in Buddhadhamma of sentience. There are various views even in the Theravada, Basically we know it when we see it and we try not to kill it.
Its a consensus, not a credo.

[Annapurna]

It just occurred to me that the Buddha probably didn't know about bacteria and viruses anyway, or did he?

Plus, if he had classified plants as sentient, we'd have nothing left to eat.

No more popcorn, it is sentient- ´

[PeterB]

He clearly had all sorts of insights that are quite surprising Anna, but iin his instructions he was always practical as well as emphasising the ethical view.

[Viscid]

The thing is, you could build a robotic ant which responds to stimuli in exactly the same way as a biological ant so that a casual observer would not know the difference.

How do we know that our fellow humans are not in fact zombies responding to external stimuli in a way which makes us only believe they're sentient, when in fact they may very well not be? Isn't the idea that anything aside from us is sentient or conscious simply an act of faith?

There is no satisfying answer to what is truly conscious or sentient, because we don't know what role consciousness plays. What does the property of being conscious do? Is a thermometer conscious? Do different beings have different 'magnitudes' of consciousness?

The only thing we are certain of is that we are conscious; that we experience, think and percieve. Any speculation as to what other than yourself is conscious is based on one's own belief and intuitions.

[Ben]

Greetings Viscid and welcome to Dhamma Wheel

The thing is, you could build a robotic ant which responds to stimuli in exactly the same way as a biological ant so that a casual observer would not know the difference.

How do we know that our fellow humans are not in fact zombies responding to external stimuli in a way which makes us only believe they're sentient, when in fact they may very well not be? Isn't the idea that anything aside from us is sentient or conscious simply an act of faith?

I think you might have been reading a bit too much of Philip K Dick's Do androids dream of electric sheep?

There is no satisfying answer to what is truly conscious or sentient, because we don't know what role consciousness plays. What does the property of being conscious do? Is a thermometer conscious? Do different beings have different 'magnitudes' of consciousness?

The only thing we are certain of is that we are conscious; that we experience, think and percieve. Any speculation as to what other than yourself is conscious is based on one's own belief and intuitions.

I think you should read some Thomas Metzinger, a neuroscience researcher and philosopher who has done some exciting research in the field of consciousness.
kind regards

Ben

[Viscid]

Thanks for the recommendation, Ben. I always have lots of books "I need to read."

Given that you have read Metzinger, is there any particular immediately-googlable theory of his which would (really no pun intended) englighten me?

[Ben]

Hi Viscid

I bought "The Ego Tunnel" last year after hearing him on radio regarding his theory of self.
It was a worthwhile investment.
If you search for him on Youtube, you should be able to locate a number of videos of his interviews/talks.
Kind regards

Ben

[Viscid]

Hi Viscid

I bought "The Ego Tunnel" last year after hearing him on radio regarding his theory of self.
It was a worthwhile investment.
If you search for him on Youtube, you should be able to locate a number of videos of his interviews/talks.
Kind regards

Ben

Watching his lectures now. He used to eat lunch with Ramachandran, so now I HAVE to read him.
Thanks again!

[Annapurna]

He clearly had all sorts of insights that are quite surprising Anna, but in his instructions he was always practical as well as emphasising the ethical view.

I agree, although I haven't read as much as you yet.

I think that sometimes the search for details is at the expense of (seeing) the whole picture....
what would you say?

[Sanghamitta]

Greetings Viscid and welcome to Dhamma Wheel

The thing is, you could build a robotic ant which responds to stimuli in exactly the same way as a biological ant so that a casual observer would not know the difference.

How do we know that our fellow humans are not in fact zombies responding to external stimuli in a way which makes us only believe they're sentient, when in fact they may very well not be? Isn't the idea that anything aside from us is sentient or conscious simply an act of faith?

I think you might have been reading a bit too much of Philip K Dick's Do androids dream of electric sheep?

There is no satisfying answer to what is truly conscious or sentient, because we don't know what role consciousness plays. What does the property of being conscious do? Is a thermometer conscious? Do different beings have different 'magnitudes' of consciousness?

The only thing we are certain of is that we are conscious; that we experience, think and percieve. Any speculation as to what other than yourself is conscious is based on one's own belief and intuitions.

I think you should read some Thomas Metzinger, a neuroscience researcher and philosopher who has done some exciting research in the field of consciousness.
kind regards

Ben

Sanghamitta is being misquoted....I think you will find that it was Riverbend that said that,,,not me

[kc2dpt]

I think that sometimes the search for details is at the expense of (seeing) the whole picture....
what would you say?

I would say some people's search for details comes at the expense of seeing the whole picture
and
some people's avoidance of details comes at the expense of properly understanding the whole picture.

[Annapurna]

Also true.

[chownah]

What am I a Buddhist maven already ?

No, why do you ask?
chownah