i was being killed.....

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Annapurna
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Re: i was being killed.....

Post by Annapurna »

I was still editing while you replied.

So read my post again.
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Annapurna
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Re: i was being killed.....

Post by Annapurna »

Individual wrote:
Annabel wrote:
Individual wrote: And we don't know whether lobsters, small insects, etc., .....are sentient beings.
This is adhamma. Lobsters and small insctxts belong to the animal kingdom and the animal kingdom is sentient, according to Buddha.
"Noble Right View," isn't to be understood as particular views, much less particular metaphysics or ontology. I'm aware of the Buddha's classification of the six realms, but we know from evolution that humans themselves are animals, and where did the say that lobsters exist in the animal kingdom?
Annabel wrote:
And if you put microscopic organisms... in boiling water, they can react, but this doesn't imply sentience.
Microscopic organisms, if bacterias, are not sentient beings. That's why we can take antibiotics without violating the first precept.

However, if we boil water with little water critters like for instance amoebas, which we can't see, and have no intention of killing, then the 1. precept is not broken.
You're repeating yourself without justifying it with discernment, or even citing suttas. How do you know that a lobster feels pain, but an amoeba does not? How do you know that a "lobster" should be regarded as a "tiracchàna" (animal) in such a way so as to exclude humans and amoebas both? Did the Buddha himself ever give a comprehensive list of all the classes of beings of all the realms?
we know from evolution that humans themselves are animals, and where did the say that lobsters exist in the animal kingdom?
Where did who say that lobsters exist in the animal kingdom? Buddha?

Do you doubt that a lobster is an animal? Google it, if you don't believe it.
How do you know that a lobster feels pain, but an amoeba does not?
I didn't assert that an amoeba doesn't feel pain.
or even citing suttas.
What exactly do you wish to read?

What constitutes sentience in Buddhism, for instance?
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Tex
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Re: i was being killed.....

Post by Tex »

Without even getting into the sentience debate, it's my understanding that eating meat is permissable in Theravada only if the animal is not specifically killed for our consumption. So picking a lobster out of a tank at a restaurant to be cooked for us would not be appropriate whether it suffers in the pot or not, right?
"To reach beyond fear and danger we must sharpen and widen our vision. We have to pierce through the deceptions that lull us into a comfortable complacency, to take a straight look down into the depths of our existence, without turning away uneasily or running after distractions." -- Bhikkhu Bodhi

"No man ever steps in the same river twice, for it's not the same river and he's not the same man." -- Heraclitus
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retrofuturist
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Re: i was being killed.....

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings Tex,
Tex wrote:Without even getting into the sentience debate, it's my understanding that eating meat is permissable in Theravada only if the animal is not specifically killed for our consumption. So picking a lobster out of a tank at a restaurant to be cooked for us would not be appropriate whether it suffers in the pot or not, right?
If you're a bhikkhu, yes.

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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Tex
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Re: i was being killed.....

Post by Tex »

Retro, thanks for correcting. Perhaps what I'd misremembered had to do with sharing in the kamma of killing the animal by choosing its time of death?
"To reach beyond fear and danger we must sharpen and widen our vision. We have to pierce through the deceptions that lull us into a comfortable complacency, to take a straight look down into the depths of our existence, without turning away uneasily or running after distractions." -- Bhikkhu Bodhi

"No man ever steps in the same river twice, for it's not the same river and he's not the same man." -- Heraclitus
Individual
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Re: i was being killed.....

Post by Individual »

Tex wrote:Retro, thanks for correcting. Perhaps what I'd misremembered had to do with sharing in the kamma of killing the animal by choosing its time of death?
To share in the kamma of the animal's death, I think you'd have to be either the fisherman or the cook. Both hunting and butchery are regarded as wrong livelihood. If we regard lobsters as animals (in the sense of tiracchanna, not the sense of "animal" in english or biology, which aren't necessarily the same thing), then catching lobsters and killing them would be wrong livelihood, but ordering any kind of seafood at a restaurant is not explicitly named as unwholesome anywhere in the Buddha's words, to my knowledge.
The best things in life aren't things.

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Ceisiwr
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Re: i was being killed.....

Post by Ceisiwr »

The buddha said that one cannot eat meat if

You have seen it being killed

Heard it being killed

It has been killed for you

I cant remember if this was just for monks or for lay as well though.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
Individual
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Re: i was being killed.....

Post by Individual »

Also, in case it's not already ridiculously and abundantly obviously clear: A lobster's faculties would not be the same as a human's faculties. They would have lobster senses including lobster mind, which does not necessarily have vedana. They might be able to see, to feel heat, pressure, texture, etc., but not necessarily the sensation of "pain" from "too much" heat, pressure, being stabbed, etc..

Some studies say lobsters feel pain:
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/stor ... d=16349115" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

According to this site, most research suggests lobsters (along with most invertebrates, including insects) do not feel pain:
http://ask.yahoo.com/20070516.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
The best things in life aren't things.

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retrofuturist
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Re: i was being killed.....

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings Craig,
clw_uk wrote:I cant remember if this was just for monks or for lay as well though.
Just monks.

Should lay adherents hold themselves to such standards, that is entirely at their discretion.

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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jcsuperstar
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Re: i was being killed.....

Post by jcsuperstar »

a lobster is a bug....

i never understood all the save lobsters talk yet the same people arent out to save the roaches

i bet far more of them are being killed...

and not even for food.
สัพเพ สัตตา สุขีตา โหนตุ

the mountain may be heavy in and of itself, but if you're not trying to carry it it's not heavy to you- Ajaan Suwat
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Prasadachitta
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Re: i was being killed.....

Post by Prasadachitta »

retrofuturist wrote: Just monks.

Should lay adherents hold themselves to such standards, that is entirely at their discretion.
May practicing Buddhists everywhere allow their discretion to enhance ethical behavior beyond the simple following of rules. May we look to the spirit of precepts for guidance in this.

Gabriel
"Beautifully taught is the Lord's Dhamma, immediately apparent, timeless, of the nature of a personal invitation, progressive, to be attained by the wise, each for himself." Anguttara Nikaya V.332
termite
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Re: i was being killed.....

Post by termite »

Individual wrote:Also, in case it's not already ridiculously and abundantly obviously clear: A lobster's faculties would not be the same as a human's faculties. They would have lobster senses including lobster mind, which does not necessarily have vedana. They might be able to see, to feel heat, pressure, texture, etc., but not necessarily the sensation of "pain" from "too much" heat, pressure, being stabbed, etc..
Do they try to run away, or not? :P

Lobsters have nervous systems, and their ability to sense heat, pressure, etc., are affected by the application of anesthesia. The ability to feel pain is an evolutionary advantage, and it's highly unlikely that an animal would possess a nervous system, while not possessing the ability to make use of that system!

From your second link: "Additionally, an independent study funded by the Norwegian government found that the nervous systems of lobsters are too simple to process pain. " A fine example of an independent and unbiased source... :P

It seems to me that those who "find" that lobsters don't feel pain are those who are interested in believing that to be the case.
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Annapurna
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Re: i was being killed.....

Post by Annapurna »

:goodpost:

Yes, termite, they run away and become upset when you touch their feelers,.... what a telling word, I just thought....feelers.
It seems to me that those who "find" that lobsters don't feel pain are those who are interested in believing that to be the case.
To have a good excuse to breed them sell them and eat them without people becoming as upset about it as about furcoats, causing the fur industry to decrease?

It was show in a documenatary , how foxes get killed:

A thing is being stuck up their anus, and another one around their mouth.

Then through both ends electricity is shot.

The foxes face turns into a tortured grimace, whilst the small body arches up in a spasm.

It takes several minutes.

After a few minutes or so they let go of it, to see if it''s still alive.

If it is, more electricity is shot up their anus and mouth.

This procedure is chosen, so the precious fur will not show a wound.

Quite like the lobster must be served without his chest or head battered, so humans don't feel too much shock from that view.

After all, most humans are sentient enough to feel sorry then.
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Re: i was being killed.....

Post by nathan »

Annabel wrote:Actually I read a masterpiece of contemporary literature, where a interesting process was described.

A journalist suddenly found himself in the body of a cow, at the slaughterhouse....

...The rest of the story was eerie and chilling. He got slaughtered.
Oh, the poor cow, trapped for the rest of life in the body of a journalist, how awful! No less so as it's likely no one has since been able to tell the difference. :rofl:
But whoever walking, standing, sitting, or lying down overcomes thought, delighting in the stilling of thought: he's capable, a monk like this, of touching superlative self-awakening. § 110. {Iti 4.11; Iti 115}
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Annapurna
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Re: i was being killed.....

Post by Annapurna »

nathan wrote:
Annabel wrote:Actually I read a masterpiece of contemporary literature, where a interesting process was described.

A journalist suddenly found himself in the body of a cow, at the slaughterhouse....

...The rest of the story was eerie and chilling. He got slaughtered.
Oh, the poor cow, trapped for the rest of life in the body of a journalist, how awful! No less so as it's likely no one has since been able to tell the difference. :rofl:
:jumping:
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