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What's the difference between Samadhi and Jhana? - Page 2 - Dhamma Wheel

What's the difference between Samadhi and Jhana?

The cultivation of calm or tranquility and the development of concentration
Anicca
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Re: What's the difference between Samadhi and Jhana?

Postby Anicca » Fri Jul 09, 2010 5:08 am


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jcsuperstar
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Re: What's the difference between Samadhi and Jhana?

Postby jcsuperstar » Fri Jul 09, 2010 8:13 am

สัพเพ สัตตา สุขีตา โหนตุ

the mountain may be heavy in and of itself, but if you're not trying to carry it it's not heavy to you- Ajaan Suwat

Kenshou
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Re: What's the difference between Samadhi and Jhana?

Postby Kenshou » Fri Jul 09, 2010 8:16 am

No, I'm trying to say that I don't think that, and more importantly, that I have never actually heard anybody say that around here. But I could be wrong, I haven't read every post.

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IanAnd
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Re: What's the difference between Samadhi and Jhana?

Postby IanAnd » Fri Jul 09, 2010 10:54 pm

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"The gift of truth exceeds all other gifts" — Dhammapada, v. 354 Craving XXIV

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Goedert
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Re: What's the difference between Samadhi and Jhana?

Postby Goedert » Fri Jul 09, 2010 11:42 pm


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Re: What's the difference between Samadhi and Jhana?

Postby Goedert » Fri Jul 09, 2010 11:58 pm

Friend,

In the simple practice exprience?

One-pointness concentration leads to absorption.
It is like a toboggan leding to the poll.

Anicca
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Re: What's the difference between Samadhi and Jhana?

Postby Anicca » Sat Jul 10, 2010 2:24 am


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Re: What's the difference between Samadhi and Jhana?

Postby Kenshou » Sat Jul 10, 2010 2:25 am

What Ian has put out there is actually pretty much all that Analayo says on the subject in that book, actually.

Anicca
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Re: What's the difference between Samadhi and Jhana?

Postby Anicca » Sat Jul 10, 2010 2:29 am


Kenshou
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Re: What's the difference between Samadhi and Jhana?

Postby Kenshou » Sat Jul 10, 2010 2:31 am

Still a good book, though. It's just that samadhi isn't really the main subject.

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Re: What's the difference between Samadhi and Jhana?

Postby Sylvester » Sat Jul 10, 2010 4:56 am


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Re: What's the difference between Samadhi and Jhana?

Postby IanAnd » Sat Jul 10, 2010 7:36 am

"The gift of truth exceeds all other gifts" — Dhammapada, v. 354 Craving XXIV

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Re: What's the difference between Samadhi and Jhana?

Postby Reductor » Sat Jul 10, 2010 5:40 pm


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IanAnd
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Re: What's the difference between Samadhi and Jhana?

Postby IanAnd » Sat Jul 10, 2010 6:45 pm

"The gift of truth exceeds all other gifts" — Dhammapada, v. 354 Craving XXIV

Kenshou
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Re: What's the difference between Samadhi and Jhana?

Postby Kenshou » Sat Jul 10, 2010 7:33 pm

I've found that by simply maintaining mindfulness of the body and attention on the breath, which in itself is a sort of applied and sustained attention, boosted by an attitude of relinquishment, the hindrances are naturally restrained, resulting in a calm and inwardly settled state. This calm naturally matures into a full experience of vivekajam-piti-sukha as the meditation is continued. This bit from the Samaññaphala Sutta describes the progression quite well: "Seeing that they (the hindrances) have been abandoned within him, he becomes glad. Glad, he becomes enraptured. Enraptured(piti), his body grows tranquil. His body tranquil, he is sensitive to pleasure(sukha). Feeling pleasure, his mind becomes concentrated." Since the mind and body are mutually pervaded with mindfulness, any piti or sukha that arises in one simultaneously fills the other, nevertheless often times some intentional effort, that is, vitakka and vicara, applied and sustained attention, is needed to maximize and stabilize it.

It feels to me rather like putting your hand into a blob of paint (vitakka, applied attention) and spreading the paint out from that point (vicara). This comparison leaves something to be desired but it describes fairly well how I experience vitakka and vicara as they act upon pitisukha. In a way, the original vitakka and vicara of sustaining and spreading stable mindfulness throughout the body is simply given another factor to work with, and as mindfulness of the body is cultivated, the resulting pitisukha of the tranquil mind naturally gets spread and strengthened too.

As attention is sustained in this way, pitisukha as well as mindfulness and concentration mutually strengthen each other. The stronger the mindfulness and attention the more secluded and focused the mind, leading to deeper vivekajam-piti-sukha, which leads to stronger concentration and mindfulness, and a sort of feedback loop of factors is established. When the mind and body are full of stable awareness and pitisukha strong all throughout, the motion of vitakka and vicara can naturally subside since they have fulfilled their purpose in stabilizing absorption, or they can be artificially maintained if the various factors are, albeit pervasive, not strong enough for the degree of concentration desired. Not all factors necessarily arise in the same way in the same degree every time, it seems.

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Re: What's the difference between Samadhi and Jhana?

Postby Reductor » Sat Jul 10, 2010 10:35 pm

When I start to meditate on the breath I sit, directing my attention to the act of breathing (vitakka). Little more is done for a while. When the act of breathing is clear and steady to my mind I attend more closely to its characteristics (vicara). I pay enough attention to the breath that I know something about it at all times. I try not to control or constrict it. I do not limit what characteristics I pay attention to and so I naturally include bodily movement and sensations that are related to breathing. In time I am aware of the whole body.

So I would describe vitakka as the fixing of attention to the breath and vicara as evaluating the breath's influence in the body.

Once the whole body is there I pick up a sense that I am interfering with the body and breath to varying degrees. Removing this interference results in bodily tranquility and mental tranquility. When I've 'let go' or my bodily interference then a very strong sense of happiness arises along with a pronounced living sense of body and breath (pitisukha).

Can I still talk? If I let go my object and reek havoc with my mind, then yes I could take up a conversation. Can I hear? If I turn from my object to check, then yes I'll hear. Is my mind drawn out into the world, scattered, weighed heavy with hindrances? Decidedly not.

Anicca
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Re: What's the difference between Samadhi and Jhana?

Postby Anicca » Sat Jul 10, 2010 11:48 pm


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Re: What's the difference between Samadhi and Jhana?

Postby Reductor » Sun Jul 11, 2010 12:34 am


Sylvester
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Re: What's the difference between Samadhi and Jhana?

Postby Sylvester » Sun Jul 11, 2010 12:36 am


Anicca
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Re: What's the difference between Samadhi and Jhana?

Postby Anicca » Sun Jul 11, 2010 4:04 am



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