On External world. Some interesting quotes

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On External world. Some interesting quotes

Postby Alex123 » Sat Jul 10, 2010 10:15 pm

Hello all,

Did Buddha teach much on external world?

""'Everything exists' is the senior form of cosmology, brahman."
"'Everything does not exist' is the second form of cosmology, brahman."
'Everything is a Oneness' is the third form of cosmology, brahman."
"'Everything is a Manyness' is the fourth form of cosmology,""
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html

""By & large, Kaccayana, this world is supported by (takes as its object) a polarity, that of existence & non-existence. But when one sees the origination of the world as it actually is with right discernment, 'non-existence' with reference to the world does not occur to one. When one sees the cessation of the world as it actually is with right discernment, 'existence' with reference to the world does not occur to one." [then it goes through DO] http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html


The above seems to refute certain ideas about the world. Furthermore the Buddha had this definition of the world:

And what, bhikkhus, is the origin of the world? In dependence on the eye and forms, eye-consciousness arises. The meeting of the three is contact. With contact as condition, feeling (comes to be); with feeling as condition, craving; with craving as condition, clinging; with clinging as condition, becoming; with becoming as condition, birth; with birth as condition, aging-and-death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, displeasure, and despair come to be. This, bhikkhus, is the origin of the world. [repeat the same for 5 other sense organ processess]
SN12.44 (4) The World BB Trans.

That in the world by which one is a perceiver of the world, a conceiver of the world—this is called the world in the Noble One’s Discipline.
SN35.116 (3) Going to the End of the World


Since the D.O. starts with ignorance and ends with "sorrow, lamentation, pain, displeasure, and despair" it appears that it relates to world as "world of experience" which is the only place where experience of Dukkha could ever occur. Dukkha that is not experienced and never experienced in anyway is not really relevant.

The famous Bahiya teaching also seems to teach a mode of emptiness where one stops short at sense data and doesn't imagine the storyline (which could serve as sign for lust or anger) beyond bare sense data
"Herein, Bahiya, you should train yourself thus: 'In the seen will be merely what is seen; in the heard will be merely what is heard; in the sensed will be merely what is sensed; in the cognized will be merely what is cognized.' In this way you should train yourself, Bahiya.

"When, Bahiya, for you in the seen is merely what is seen... in the cognized is merely what is cognized, then, Bahiya, you will not be 'with that.' When, Bahiya, you are not 'with that,' then, Bahiya, you will not be 'in that.' When, Bahiya, you are not 'in that,' then, Bahiya, you will be neither here nor beyond nor in between the two. Just this is the end of suffering."
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .irel.html




What do you all think?

With metta,

Alex
I was not; I was; I am not; I do not care."
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Re: On External world. Some interesting quotes

Postby retrofuturist » Sat Jul 10, 2010 11:50 pm

Greetings Alex,

Alex123 wrote:What do you all think?

I think that's an excellent series of quotes, well linked and explained, which are incredibly pertinent to the Dhamma and its understanding.

Alex123 wrote:Since the D.O. starts with ignorance and ends with "sorrow, lamentation, pain, displeasure, and despair" it appears that it relates to world as "world of experience" which is the only place where experience of Dukkha could ever occur. Dukkha that is not experienced and never experienced in anyway is not really relevant.

Indeed. Knowing this helps us focus on that which is relevant (i.e. suffering and its cessation), and away from that which is irrelevant and/or speculative (e.g. cosmology, the so called 'external' world, speculative views, whether things 'exist')

Sadhu!

:anjali:

Metta,
Retro. :)
If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding:
Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)


Exalted in mind, just open and clearly aware, the recluse trained in the ways of the sages:
One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7


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Re: On External world. Some interesting quotes

Postby Alex123 » Sun Jul 11, 2010 2:28 am

Hello Retro, all,

Another addition: Does rūpa means material form?

"And why do you call it 'form'? Because it is afflicted, thus it is called 'form.' Afflicted with what? With cold & heat & hunger & thirst, with the touch of flies, mosquitoes, wind, sun, & reptiles. Because it is afflicted, it is called form.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html


Rocks, sticks, stones, mountains, earth, sand etc are not afflicted with things such as "hunger & thirst" etc. Which inanimate material things are afflicted?

They (rocks, sticks, etc) also do not form the truth of dukkha. But we can see how form as an affliction of "cold & heat & hunger & thirst, with the touch of flies, mosquitoes, wind, sun, & reptiles" experientially is relevant as a description of physical dukkha.
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Re: On External world. Some interesting quotes

Postby retrofuturist » Sun Jul 11, 2010 2:38 am

Greetings Alex,

Does rūpa means material form?

Consistent with your initial post, I understand it to be experience of material form, rather than some sort of objectified external reality consisting of atoms, molecules and such. To give an example that might put that in context, arupa-jhana doesn't mean the objectified physical body actually disappears, only the experience of rupa disappears.

Metta,
Retro. :)
If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding:
Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)


Exalted in mind, just open and clearly aware, the recluse trained in the ways of the sages:
One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7


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Re: On External world. Some interesting quotes

Postby SDC » Sun Jul 11, 2010 2:51 am

Such a great line...

"It is within this fathom-long body itself, with its perception and conception, that I declare there is the world, the beginning of the world, the end of the world and the way leading to the end of the world."

SN 2.26 and AN 4.45
Through many of samsara’s births I hasten seeking, finding not the builder of this house - pain is birth again, again. O builder of this house you’re seen, you shall not build a house again, all your beams have given away, rafters of the ridge decayed, mind to the unconditioned gone, exhaustion of craving has it reached.(Dhp - 153, 154)
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Re: On External world. Some interesting quotes

Postby Sobeh » Sun Jul 11, 2010 4:14 am

This thread is full of win.

:heart:
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Re: On External world. Some interesting quotes

Postby SDC » Sun Jul 11, 2010 12:04 pm

Alex, I think you'll enjoy this lecture by Venerable Punnaji. The first few minutes is right along the lines of the discussion so far. But the whole thing is worth a listen.

http://www.buddhistelibrary.org/cpg1420/displayimage.php?album=45&pos=28
Through many of samsara’s births I hasten seeking, finding not the builder of this house - pain is birth again, again. O builder of this house you’re seen, you shall not build a house again, all your beams have given away, rafters of the ridge decayed, mind to the unconditioned gone, exhaustion of craving has it reached.(Dhp - 153, 154)
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Re: On External world. Some interesting quotes

Postby Alex123 » Sun Jul 11, 2010 4:43 pm

SDC wrote:Alex, I think you'll enjoy this lecture by Venerable Punnaji. The first few minutes is right along the lines of the discussion so far. But the whole thing is worth a listen.

http://www.buddhistelibrary.org/cpg1420/displayimage.php?album=45&pos=28


I am listening to it. Very interesting. Thank you very much.
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Re: On External world. Some interesting quotes

Postby SDC » Mon Jul 12, 2010 12:46 am

Alex123 wrote:I am listening to it. Very interesting. Thank you very much.


You're welcome. :smile:
Through many of samsara’s births I hasten seeking, finding not the builder of this house - pain is birth again, again. O builder of this house you’re seen, you shall not build a house again, all your beams have given away, rafters of the ridge decayed, mind to the unconditioned gone, exhaustion of craving has it reached.(Dhp - 153, 154)
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Re: On External world. Some interesting quotes

Postby Freawaru » Mon Jul 12, 2010 8:43 am

Good thread, good points! Thanks :smile:
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Re: On External world. Some interesting quotes

Postby retrofuturist » Mon Jul 12, 2010 11:52 am

Greetings,

Excellent Dhamma talk! Thank you SDC.

"Now this way of thinking is what is today called phenomenology and this is the position that the Buddha also took."

"Now this means to talk about the thing called matter is also not correct. To talk about the thing called mind is also not correct"

Image

Metta,
Retro. :)
If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding:
Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)


Exalted in mind, just open and clearly aware, the recluse trained in the ways of the sages:
One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7


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Re: On External world. Some interesting quotes

Postby SDC » Mon Jul 12, 2010 7:29 pm

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings,

Excellent Dhamma talk! Thank you SDC.

"Now this way of thinking is what is today called phenomenology and this is the position that the Buddha also took."

"Now this means to talk about the thing called matter is also not correct. To talk about the thing called mind is also not correct"

Image

Metta,
Retro. :)


You're welcome, retro. :smile:
Through many of samsara’s births I hasten seeking, finding not the builder of this house - pain is birth again, again. O builder of this house you’re seen, you shall not build a house again, all your beams have given away, rafters of the ridge decayed, mind to the unconditioned gone, exhaustion of craving has it reached.(Dhp - 153, 154)
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Re: On External world. Some interesting quotes

Postby Wind » Tue Jul 13, 2010 3:49 am

The Dhamma is strong in this thread. :meditate:
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Re: On External world. Some interesting quotes

Postby rowyourboat » Wed Jul 14, 2010 10:18 am

Hi Retro

Nice thread.

I believe there is a sutta- to paraphrase it:
'since there is arising, the world cannot be said not to exist,
since there is passing away, the world cannot be said to exist'

I dont seem to have saved this sutta in my files so cant retrieve it for this thread. I anyone can find it, it would be worthwhile as it is a bit of gem. I really liked the position the Buddha took on this matter. It leads to letting go as there is no firm conclusion- a bit like Ven Ajhan Chah's 'nothing is certain' response.

with metta
:anjali:
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Re: On External world. Some interesting quotes

Postby Alex123 » Thu Jul 15, 2010 9:07 pm

rowyourboat wrote:I believe there is a sutta- to paraphrase it:
'since there is arising, the world cannot be said not to exist,
since there is passing away, the world cannot be said to exist'


It seems to be a paraphrase of Kaccayanagotta sutta:
But when one sees the origination of the world as it actually is with right discernment, 'non-existence' with reference to the world does not occur to one.
When one sees the cessation of the world as it actually is with right discernment, 'existence' with reference to the world does not occur to one."



Now I'd like to continue.

When the Buddha refuses to affirm:
'Everything is a Oneness' , "'Everything is a Manyness' .
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html


To what extent and how far does the above go? Isn't it a standart Buddhist philosophy that the world as a whole doesn't really exist as it is made of many parts (dhammas, aggregates, elements, spheres, etc)?

Also in the light of Bahiya teaching (in the seen, let there be just the seen... etc), how far did the Buddha teach philosophy?



With metta,

Alex
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Re: On External world. Some interesting quotes

Postby tiltbillings » Thu Jul 15, 2010 9:25 pm

Alex123 wrote:
To what extent and how far does the above go? Isn't it a standart Buddhist philosophy that the world as a whole doesn't really exist as it is made of many parts (dhammas, aggregates, elements, spheres, etc)?
One needs to be careful to not read the Abhidhamma into the suttas, easpecially the later Abhidhamma notions. Dhammas, aggregates, elements, spheres, etc are ways of talking about experience. They are not ways of talking about "external reality."

Recall that from the perspective of the Buddha’s teachings in the Pali, the ‘All’ {SN IV 15} is composed entirely of phassa, contact between sense base and sense object. We can only directly know phenomena within this ‘world of experience’, so from the Theravadin perspective, we cannot know whether there really exists a ‘brain’ or a ‘body’ apart from moments of intellectual consciousness, of seeing (the image of a brain), and so on. The discourses of the Pali describe an individual world of experience as composed of various mental and physical factors, nama and rupa. These two are not the separate, independent worlds that Rene Descartes envisioned.

"…the Buddha spoke of the human person as a psychophysical personality (namarupa). Yet the psychic and the physical were never discussed in isolation, nor were they viewed as self-subsistent entities. For him, there was neither a ‘material-stuff’ nor a ‘mental-stuff’, because both are results of reductive analyses that go beyond experience."53

The physical and mental aspects of human experience are continually arising together, intimately dependent on one another.

53 Kalupahana 1976: 73, refers to D.15{II,62}, where the Buddha speaks of both
physicality and mentality mutually dependent forms of contact (phassa).
Physicality is described as contact with resistance (pat.ighasamphassa),
mentality as contact with concepts (adhivacanasamphassa).


STRONG ROOTS by Jake Davis, page 190-1. http://www.dharma.org/bcbs/Pages/docume ... gRoots.pdf
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.
"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: On External world. Some interesting quotes

Postby Alex123 » Sun Jul 18, 2010 6:29 pm

Some interesting things are said in DN15
(1) If there is no description (appearance (ākāra), feature (liṅga), sign (nimitta), & indicators (uddesa)) of nāma group, no designation-contact (adhivacanasamphasso) with regard to the rūpa group would be discerned (paññāyethā).

(2) If there is no description (ākāra, liṅga, nimitta,uddesa) of rūpa group, no resistance-contact (paṭighasamphasso) with regard to the nāma group would be discerned.

(3) If there is no description (ākāra, liṅga, nimitta,uddesa) of nāma group and rūpa group, no designation-contact with regard to the rūpa group and no resistance-contact with regard to the nāma group would be discerned.

(4) If there is no description (ākāra, liṅga, nimitta,uddesa) of nāma-rūpa, no contact would be discerned.



So I guess the experience of form is always the "percieved" form. Rūpa is always known as part of nāma, nāma-rūpa.

And also, in description of ayatanas or 18 dhatu, Rūpa is an object of the eye. So the form could also mean, visible form.

Due to eye and form, eye-consciousness arises. Cakkhuñca paṭicca rūpe ca uppajjati cakkhuviññāṇaṃ MN148









Some Pali
ākāra = manner; condition; state; appearance.
liṅga = sign; mark; attribute; feature; the generative organ; the gender (in
grammar).
Nimitta = sign; omen; portent; cause.
Uddesa= 1. indication; 2. propounding; 3. recitation.
Adhivacanasamphasso= a term; designation. + contact
paṭighasamphasso = (anger; repulsion; collision.) + contact
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