On External world. Some interesting quotes

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
User avatar
Alex123
Posts: 4035
Joined: Wed Mar 10, 2010 11:32 pm

On External world. Some interesting quotes

Post by Alex123 »

Hello all,

Did Buddha teach much on external world?
""'Everything exists' is the senior form of cosmology, brahman."
"'Everything does not exist' is the second form of cosmology, brahman."
'Everything is a Oneness' is the third form of cosmology, brahman."
"'Everything is a Manyness' is the fourth form of cosmology,""
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

""By & large, Kaccayana, this world is supported by (takes as its object) a polarity, that of existence & non-existence. But when one sees the origination of the world as it actually is with right discernment, 'non-existence' with reference to the world does not occur to one. When one sees the cessation of the world as it actually is with right discernment, 'existence' with reference to the world does not occur to one." [then it goes through DO] http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
The above seems to refute certain ideas about the world. Furthermore the Buddha had this definition of the world:
And what, bhikkhus, is the origin of the world? In dependence on the eye and forms, eye-consciousness arises. The meeting of the three is contact. With contact as condition, feeling (comes to be); with feeling as condition, craving; with craving as condition, clinging; with clinging as condition, becoming; with becoming as condition, birth; with birth as condition, aging-and-death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, displeasure, and despair come to be. This, bhikkhus, is the origin of the world. [repeat the same for 5 other sense organ processess]
SN12.44 (4) The World BB Trans.

That in the world by which one is a perceiver of the world, a conceiver of the world—this is called the world in the Noble One’s Discipline.
SN35.116 (3) Going to the End of the World
Since the D.O. starts with ignorance and ends with "sorrow, lamentation, pain, displeasure, and despair" it appears that it relates to world as "world of experience" which is the only place where experience of Dukkha could ever occur. Dukkha that is not experienced and never experienced in anyway is not really relevant.

The famous Bahiya teaching also seems to teach a mode of emptiness where one stops short at sense data and doesn't imagine the storyline (which could serve as sign for lust or anger) beyond bare sense data
"Herein, Bahiya, you should train yourself thus: 'In the seen will be merely what is seen; in the heard will be merely what is heard; in the sensed will be merely what is sensed; in the cognized will be merely what is cognized.' In this way you should train yourself, Bahiya.

"When, Bahiya, for you in the seen is merely what is seen... in the cognized is merely what is cognized, then, Bahiya, you will not be 'with that.' When, Bahiya, you are not 'with that,' then, Bahiya, you will not be 'in that.' When, Bahiya, you are not 'in that,' then, Bahiya, you will be neither here nor beyond nor in between the two. Just this is the end of suffering."
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .irel.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;


What do you all think?

With metta,

Alex
User avatar
retrofuturist
Posts: 27848
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 9:52 pm
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Contact:

Re: On External world. Some interesting quotes

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings Alex,
Alex123 wrote:What do you all think?
I think that's an excellent series of quotes, well linked and explained, which are incredibly pertinent to the Dhamma and its understanding.
Alex123 wrote:Since the D.O. starts with ignorance and ends with "sorrow, lamentation, pain, displeasure, and despair" it appears that it relates to world as "world of experience" which is the only place where experience of Dukkha could ever occur. Dukkha that is not experienced and never experienced in anyway is not really relevant.
Indeed. Knowing this helps us focus on that which is relevant (i.e. suffering and its cessation), and away from that which is irrelevant and/or speculative (e.g. cosmology, the so called 'external' world, speculative views, whether things 'exist')

Sadhu!

:anjali:

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
User avatar
Alex123
Posts: 4035
Joined: Wed Mar 10, 2010 11:32 pm

Re: On External world. Some interesting quotes

Post by Alex123 »

Hello Retro, all,

Another addition: Does rūpa means material form?
"And why do you call it 'form'? Because it is afflicted, thus it is called 'form.' Afflicted with what? With cold & heat & hunger & thirst, with the touch of flies, mosquitoes, wind, sun, & reptiles. Because it is afflicted, it is called form.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Rocks, sticks, stones, mountains, earth, sand etc are not afflicted with things such as "hunger & thirst" etc. Which inanimate material things are afflicted?

They (rocks, sticks, etc) also do not form the truth of dukkha. But we can see how form as an affliction of "cold & heat & hunger & thirst, with the touch of flies, mosquitoes, wind, sun, & reptiles" experientially is relevant as a description of physical dukkha.
User avatar
retrofuturist
Posts: 27848
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 9:52 pm
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Contact:

Re: On External world. Some interesting quotes

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings Alex,
Does rūpa means material form?
Consistent with your initial post, I understand it to be experience of material form, rather than some sort of objectified external reality consisting of atoms, molecules and such. To give an example that might put that in context, arupa-jhana doesn't mean the objectified physical body actually disappears, only the experience of rupa disappears.

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
User avatar
SDC
Posts: 9062
Joined: Mon Dec 14, 2009 11:08 pm

Re: On External world. Some interesting quotes

Post by SDC »

Such a great line...

"It is within this fathom-long body itself, with its perception and conception, that I declare there is the world, the beginning of the world, the end of the world and the way leading to the end of the world."

SN 2.26 and AN 4.45
“Life is swept along, short is the life span; no shelters exist for one who has reached old age. Seeing clearly this danger in death, a seeker of peace should drop the world’s bait.” SN 1.3
User avatar
Sobeh
Posts: 329
Joined: Tue Mar 16, 2010 3:35 am
Location: Salt Lake City, UT, US
Contact:

Re: On External world. Some interesting quotes

Post by Sobeh »

This thread is full of win.

:heart:
User avatar
SDC
Posts: 9062
Joined: Mon Dec 14, 2009 11:08 pm

Re: On External world. Some interesting quotes

Post by SDC »

Alex, I think you'll enjoy this lecture by Venerable Punnaji. The first few minutes is right along the lines of the discussion so far. But the whole thing is worth a listen.

http://www.buddhistelibrary.org/cpg1420 ... =45&pos=28
“Life is swept along, short is the life span; no shelters exist for one who has reached old age. Seeing clearly this danger in death, a seeker of peace should drop the world’s bait.” SN 1.3
User avatar
Alex123
Posts: 4035
Joined: Wed Mar 10, 2010 11:32 pm

Re: On External world. Some interesting quotes

Post by Alex123 »

SDC wrote:Alex, I think you'll enjoy this lecture by Venerable Punnaji. The first few minutes is right along the lines of the discussion so far. But the whole thing is worth a listen.

http://www.buddhistelibrary.org/cpg1420 ... =45&pos=28
I am listening to it. Very interesting. Thank you very much.
User avatar
SDC
Posts: 9062
Joined: Mon Dec 14, 2009 11:08 pm

Re: On External world. Some interesting quotes

Post by SDC »

Alex123 wrote:I am listening to it. Very interesting. Thank you very much.
You're welcome. :smile:
“Life is swept along, short is the life span; no shelters exist for one who has reached old age. Seeing clearly this danger in death, a seeker of peace should drop the world’s bait.” SN 1.3
Freawaru
Posts: 489
Joined: Fri Nov 13, 2009 8:26 pm

Re: On External world. Some interesting quotes

Post by Freawaru »

Good thread, good points! Thanks :smile:
User avatar
retrofuturist
Posts: 27848
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 9:52 pm
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Contact:

Re: On External world. Some interesting quotes

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings,

Excellent Dhamma talk! Thank you SDC.

"Now this way of thinking is what is today called phenomenology and this is the position that the Buddha also took."

"Now this means to talk about the thing called matter is also not correct. To talk about the thing called mind is also not correct"

Image

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
User avatar
SDC
Posts: 9062
Joined: Mon Dec 14, 2009 11:08 pm

Re: On External world. Some interesting quotes

Post by SDC »

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings,

Excellent Dhamma talk! Thank you SDC.

"Now this way of thinking is what is today called phenomenology and this is the position that the Buddha also took."

"Now this means to talk about the thing called matter is also not correct. To talk about the thing called mind is also not correct"

Image

Metta,
Retro. :)
You're welcome, retro. :smile:
“Life is swept along, short is the life span; no shelters exist for one who has reached old age. Seeing clearly this danger in death, a seeker of peace should drop the world’s bait.” SN 1.3
User avatar
Wind
Posts: 342
Joined: Thu Feb 04, 2010 11:10 pm

Re: On External world. Some interesting quotes

Post by Wind »

The Dhamma is strong in this thread. :meditate:
rowyourboat
Posts: 1952
Joined: Sat Jan 03, 2009 5:29 pm
Location: London, UK

Re: On External world. Some interesting quotes

Post by rowyourboat »

Hi Retro

Nice thread.

I believe there is a sutta- to paraphrase it:
'since there is arising, the world cannot be said not to exist,
since there is passing away, the world cannot be said to exist'

I dont seem to have saved this sutta in my files so cant retrieve it for this thread. I anyone can find it, it would be worthwhile as it is a bit of gem. I really liked the position the Buddha took on this matter. It leads to letting go as there is no firm conclusion- a bit like Ven Ajhan Chah's 'nothing is certain' response.

with metta
:anjali:
With Metta

Karuna
Mudita
& Upekkha
User avatar
Alex123
Posts: 4035
Joined: Wed Mar 10, 2010 11:32 pm

Re: On External world. Some interesting quotes

Post by Alex123 »

rowyourboat wrote: I believe there is a sutta- to paraphrase it:
'since there is arising, the world cannot be said not to exist,
since there is passing away, the world cannot be said to exist'
It seems to be a paraphrase of Kaccayanagotta sutta:
But when one sees the origination of the world as it actually is with right discernment, 'non-existence' with reference to the world does not occur to one.
When one sees the cessation of the world as it actually is with right discernment, 'existence' with reference to the world does not occur to one."

Now I'd like to continue.

When the Buddha refuses to affirm:
'Everything is a Oneness' , "'Everything is a Manyness' .
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
To what extent and how far does the above go? Isn't it a standart Buddhist philosophy that the world as a whole doesn't really exist as it is made of many parts (dhammas, aggregates, elements, spheres, etc)?

Also in the light of Bahiya teaching (in the seen, let there be just the seen... etc), how far did the Buddha teach philosophy?



With metta,

Alex
Post Reply