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Sectarian "pseudo-selves" - Dhamma Wheel

Sectarian "pseudo-selves"

Textual analysis and comparative discussion on early Buddhist sects and texts.
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EricJ
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Sectarian "pseudo-selves"

Postby EricJ » Sun Jul 11, 2010 8:46 am

I do not want my house to be walled in on sides and my windows to be stuffed. I want the cultures of all the lands to be blown about my house as freely as possible. But I refuse to be blown off my feet by any.- Gandhi

With persistence aroused for the highest goal's attainment, with mind unsmeared, not lazy in action, firm in effort, with steadfastness & strength arisen, wander alone like a rhinoceros.

Not neglecting seclusion, absorption, constantly living the Dhamma in line with the Dhamma, comprehending the danger in states of becoming, wander alone like a rhinoceros.
- Snp. 1.3

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retrofuturist
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Re: Sectarian "pseudo-selves"

Postby retrofuturist » Sun Jul 11, 2010 9:05 am

"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine

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Lazy_eye
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Re: Sectarian "pseudo-selves"

Postby Lazy_eye » Sun Jul 11, 2010 11:58 am


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Re: Sectarian "pseudo-selves"

Postby retrofuturist » Sun Jul 11, 2010 12:04 pm

Greetings Lazy Eye,

On that question, I'd recommend reading the first several posts in this topic...

On External world. Some interesting quotes
viewtopic.php?f=13&t=4936

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine

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jcsuperstar
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Re: Sectarian "pseudo-selves"

Postby jcsuperstar » Sun Jul 11, 2010 12:09 pm

here is an interesting article about the Puggalavadins



admittedly i have always found the Puggalavadin argument a bit convincing. it's also interesting how some of their ideas have manifested in modern Thai Buddhism. I've even seen ajahn Thanissaro compared to them. it is also interesting that they were pretty much the largest school of Buddhism in India, maybe we are the unorthodox, and just by luck of history made it through the years. :juggling:
สัพเพ สัตตา สุขีตา โหนตุ

the mountain may be heavy in and of itself, but if you're not trying to carry it it's not heavy to you- Ajaan Suwat

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EricJ
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Re: Sectarian "pseudo-selves"

Postby EricJ » Sun Jul 11, 2010 4:43 pm

I do not want my house to be walled in on sides and my windows to be stuffed. I want the cultures of all the lands to be blown about my house as freely as possible. But I refuse to be blown off my feet by any.- Gandhi

With persistence aroused for the highest goal's attainment, with mind unsmeared, not lazy in action, firm in effort, with steadfastness & strength arisen, wander alone like a rhinoceros.

Not neglecting seclusion, absorption, constantly living the Dhamma in line with the Dhamma, comprehending the danger in states of becoming, wander alone like a rhinoceros.
- Snp. 1.3

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EricJ
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Re: Sectarian "pseudo-selves"

Postby EricJ » Sun Jul 11, 2010 4:49 pm

I do not want my house to be walled in on sides and my windows to be stuffed. I want the cultures of all the lands to be blown about my house as freely as possible. But I refuse to be blown off my feet by any.- Gandhi

With persistence aroused for the highest goal's attainment, with mind unsmeared, not lazy in action, firm in effort, with steadfastness & strength arisen, wander alone like a rhinoceros.

Not neglecting seclusion, absorption, constantly living the Dhamma in line with the Dhamma, comprehending the danger in states of becoming, wander alone like a rhinoceros.
- Snp. 1.3

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Re: Sectarian "pseudo-selves"

Postby Kenshou » Sun Jul 11, 2010 5:30 pm

I feel like some of the scrambling around for something to classify a pseudo-self, in antiquity as in the present, is due to kind of missing the point and taking the tool of not-self out where it doesn't belong. I've never understood the teaching of the five aggregates to be necessarily talking about anything more than experience, and therefore leaving the workings of the overall process somewhat undefined. The point being that there is nothing within our experience which is constant, and so for the sake of the path, nothing that should be clung to as a self or of a self. However, as far as we know there could be something outside of our experience yet connected somehow to the process of the arising of beings, who the hell knows? But then, practice will reveal that there isn't any such mysterious thing within our experience, so from the practical Buddhist standpoint, it doesn't matter.

I'm not making any particular assertion with that line of thought, but I think anatta is sometimes drug outside of it's intended bounds. There are lots of factors in the world, we don't completely understand what the heck's going on with all that, and the dhamma isn't really trying to explain it to us.

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Re: Sectarian "pseudo-selves"

Postby mikenz66 » Sun Jul 11, 2010 6:52 pm


Kenshou
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Re: Sectarian "pseudo-selves"

Postby Kenshou » Sun Jul 11, 2010 7:20 pm


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Re: Sectarian "pseudo-selves"

Postby mikenz66 » Sun Jul 11, 2010 7:28 pm


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Re: Sectarian "pseudo-selves"

Postby mikenz66 » Sun Jul 11, 2010 7:32 pm


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Re: Sectarian "pseudo-selves"

Postby retrofuturist » Sun Jul 11, 2010 10:47 pm

"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine

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mikenz66
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Re: Sectarian "pseudo-selves"

Postby mikenz66 » Mon Jul 12, 2010 12:10 am


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Re: Sectarian "pseudo-selves"

Postby retrofuturist » Mon Jul 12, 2010 12:15 am

"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine

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mikenz66
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Re: Sectarian "pseudo-selves"

Postby mikenz66 » Mon Jul 12, 2010 12:20 am


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Re: Sectarian "pseudo-selves"

Postby retrofuturist » Mon Jul 12, 2010 12:36 am

Greetings Mike,

Thanks for finding that. The Grand Inquisitor Dhammanando has a great sense of humour, which he has put to good effect in expounding what it objectionable about Thanissaro Bhikkhu's comments from a Mahavihara perspective.

Of course, "failure to incorporate the Abhidhammic conception of dhammas into his exposition of wisdom-related teachings (elements, aggregates, sense-bases etc.)" would in fact be seen as a positive advantage by most Buddhist schools (past and present) as well as those who give primacy to those materials accepted by Buddhist scholars as most likely representing Buddhavacana (namely, the first four nikayas of the Sutta Pitaka, with a nod-and-a-wink to the Chinese Agamas too). Again, more from Bhikkhu Bodhi... "I take as the sole ultimate authority for interpretation of the Dhamma the Buddha's discourses as found in the four main Nikaayas and in the older strata of the Khuddaka Nikaaya. I share with Ven. ~Naa.naviira the view that these books can be considered the most trustworthy record of the Buddha's teachings, and hence should be turned to as the final court of appeal for resolving questions about the correct interpretation of the Dhamma.". I agree with Bhikkhu Bodhi.

"Eel-wriggling interpretation of anattā as a strategy" would probably require a bit more detail if we were to take it any more seriously than Grand Inquisitor Dhammanando himself did. Does anattā as a "strategy" deny it as a "truth"? I don't think it does. The main point of difference vis-a-vis the Thanissaro and Sutta perspectives, in relation to the Mahavihara perspective is that the Mahavihara supposedly went as far as to extend "not-self" to a metaphysical assertion of "no self". From what I've picked up in my readings, this is probably in response to Puggalavada type views... so through opposing and discrediting one view, they went further in the other direction than the Buddha himself did. Despite accurately representing the Buddha's approach to anatta, Thanissaro Bhikkhu gets caught up in this historical sectarian cross-fire by refusing to put his stamp of approval on the metaphysical "no self" proposition. I believe he successfully draws upon Buddhavacana to explain and justify his position.

Back specifically to "pseudo-selves" for a moment, there's also concerns oftened levelled against the early Thai Forest tradition and their use of "citta" as "the one who knows".

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine

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Re: Sectarian "pseudo-selves"

Postby mikenz66 » Mon Jul 12, 2010 2:30 am


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Re: Sectarian "pseudo-selves"

Postby retrofuturist » Mon Jul 12, 2010 2:47 am

"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine

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retrofuturist
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Re: Sectarian "pseudo-selves"

Postby retrofuturist » Mon Jul 12, 2010 2:53 am

"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine


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