Materialism, Dualism, Buddhism

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths. What can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
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Lazy_eye
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Re: Materialism, Dualism, Buddhism

Postby Lazy_eye » Tue Jul 13, 2010 4:04 pm

Thanks Peter, maybe I'll drop him a line. I see he's on Facebook :)

Namaste,

LE

PeterB
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Re: Materialism, Dualism, Buddhism

Postby PeterB » Tue Jul 13, 2010 4:11 pm

:thumbsup:

Shonin
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Re: Materialism, Dualism, Buddhism

Postby Shonin » Tue Jul 13, 2010 4:14 pm


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beeblebrox
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Re: Materialism, Dualism, Buddhism

Postby beeblebrox » Tue Jul 13, 2010 9:09 pm

Last edited by beeblebrox on Wed Jul 14, 2010 2:39 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Sobeh
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Re: Materialism, Dualism, Buddhism

Postby Sobeh » Tue Jul 13, 2010 9:26 pm

As long as it is defined as somehow being Metaphysics, it's to be discarded as irrelevant. Non-dualism, however one details it, is still an ontological claim. If people want to talk meaningful philosophy, let's investigate Buddhist epistemology and metaethics.

Nyana
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Re: Materialism, Dualism, Buddhism

Postby Nyana » Tue Jul 13, 2010 11:53 pm


PeterB
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Re: Materialism, Dualism, Buddhism

Postby PeterB » Wed Jul 14, 2010 6:52 am

Thank you Nana. I will stick with Bhikkhu Bodhi thanks as its rooted in Theravada pragmatism rather abstract surmising. If I set any store by Nagarjuna et al. I wouldnt be on this forum.

:anjali:

Shonin
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Re: Materialism, Dualism, Buddhism

Postby Shonin » Wed Jul 14, 2010 7:01 am

Choosing not to follow a path is one thing. Spreading misrepresentations of it, is another.

PeterB
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Re: Materialism, Dualism, Buddhism

Postby PeterB » Wed Jul 14, 2010 7:04 am

Am I being accused of something Shonin ?

PeterB
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Re: Materialism, Dualism, Buddhism

Postby PeterB » Wed Jul 14, 2010 7:11 am

Well ?

PeterB
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Re: Materialism, Dualism, Buddhism

Postby PeterB » Wed Jul 14, 2010 7:25 am

I suppose really we should be grateful that you take time out to put us right with our confused Theravadin ways, It is actually altruistic of you to rephrase our answers in a way that better suits your pre existing Zen belief systems about emptiness and fingers and hands clapping etc.
Particularly in light of the fact that back on the forum of which you are Global Moderator there are the usual crop of posts from those who post repeatedly to say that they don't exist. There is a thread eulogising the cult leader Rajneesh. There is a regular poster with links to a site which proclaims the White Lions OF Africa to be incarnations of God and at least one individual who thinks that the Buddha is Jung's representative on earth. And that Buddha Nature IS Jung's Collective Unconscious. And that Dependant Origination starts there.
Given all that the true magnanimity of your actions in bringing the light to the heathen is that much more commendable.
Last edited by PeterB on Wed Jul 14, 2010 7:41 am, edited 1 time in total.

PeterB
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Re: Materialism, Dualism, Buddhism

Postby PeterB » Wed Jul 14, 2010 7:28 am


Nyana
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Re: Materialism, Dualism, Buddhism

Postby Nyana » Wed Jul 14, 2010 8:32 am


PeterB
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Re: Materialism, Dualism, Buddhism

Postby PeterB » Wed Jul 14, 2010 8:49 am

Yes we get it Nana...its unacceptable to you.
A perfunctory perusal of this thread will I think show a number of Theravadin students taking the same view as Bhikkhu Bodhi, i.e. that duality and non duality is simply not addressed by the Buddha.
Given the nature of the religious culture in which he was raised this is significant. A careful reading will show that what is being offered is not an alternative understanding of duality/non duality, rather a non engagement with the issue. Which given the prominent nature of the issue to many Mahayanists could be seen as an contrary position. From a Theravadin viewpoint the whole duality/non duality debate amounts to a strawman of vast proportions and gothic complexity.
The fact that later interpolations of Buddhadhamma both raised the issue and then addressed it to their own satisfaction is neither here nor there.
If I am to remain within the forum guidelines words cannot adequately convey the degree of indifference I hold towards the teachings of Nagarjuna.
Neither except at an individual level am I particularly interested in Theravada -Mahayana dialogue.
Nothing personal. Some of my best friends are Mahayanists.

Hoo
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Re: Materialism, Dualism, Buddhism

Postby Hoo » Wed Jul 14, 2010 9:42 am


Nyana
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Re: Materialism, Dualism, Buddhism

Postby Nyana » Wed Jul 14, 2010 10:02 am


PeterB
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Re: Materialism, Dualism, Buddhism

Postby PeterB » Wed Jul 14, 2010 10:17 am

I have no desire to comment on madhyamika non duality. My understanding of it is irrelevant either way.
Anymore than I log onto a Theravadin website to comment on Transubstantiation or The Twelve Hidden Imams or the principles of Christian Science , although I am sure that the adherents of those faiths could find Sutta verses which they could expand into a confirmation of their position.
I was tempted to look up the Sutta verse alluded to, in order to comment on it. but do you know what Nana ?
I really ...dont....care.
I guarantee one thing. I will not join any Mahayana forum that you belong to in order to argue the Theravada view. Because I don't actually care what you think...You are of course free to raise any bar you feel needs raising.
metta,

:anjali:

Nyana
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Re: Materialism, Dualism, Buddhism

Postby Nyana » Wed Jul 14, 2010 10:34 am


PeterB
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Re: Materialism, Dualism, Buddhism

Postby PeterB » Wed Jul 14, 2010 10:51 am

Geoff please feel free to continue to count as many empty straws on as many non-dual shunyata strawmen as you wish. Cite as many authorities as you wish. To which I could cite an equal ( at least ) number of Theravadin authorities to refute all and any madhyamika formulation..
Whats the point ? Really ?

Just include me out.

:anjali:

Shonin
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Re: Materialism, Dualism, Buddhism

Postby Shonin » Wed Jul 14, 2010 1:39 pm

Hi Peter,

If you really have as much disinterest in all Mahayana thought as you say, and do not wish to discuss it, the sensible thing to do would be to refrain from making disparaging straw man arguments, comments and implications about it. I'm sure I've suggested this to you before.

Your criticisms of Nagarjuna, Madhyamaka, Sunyata and Non-duality are consistently off-target and unsupported by source material. Nagarjuna, for example, is abstract but very non-metaphysical. He has been compared in modern times to Wittgenstein, who was the leading figure in the Logical Positivist movement. That is about as non-metaphysical as you can get. Having said that, there are Mahayana concepts which really are very metaphysical or have been reinterpreted as such. Neither Emptiness nor Non-self mean non-existence, for example. Those misunderstandings are worth challenging I think. And that is what I try to do at least at times on ZFI. Just as your (and Bikkhu Bodhi's) misunderstanding of Non-duality as some sort of metaphysical theory about a Cosmic Absolute that is inconsistent with Buddhadhamma is worth challenging here.

There is, however no enforced orthodoxy of view on ZFI (Esangha had that and it wasn't pretty). Also, I'm not an active moderator there.

Also I'm not aware of having any 'pre existing Zen belief systems' . As I explained, Nonduality is an experience (of Nonself) not a belief. It is, however Zen terminology - but hey, Bikkhu Bodhi started it. I'm not a 'Zennist' or a 'Mahayanaist'. Zen just happens to be my main practice. I also sit with a Theravada group. Just last night I gave a talk there about Anatta. I'm just as comfortable with a Theravada theoretical framework - maybe even more so. One thing I greatly value about Theravada is the coherence of it's authoritative texts - especially the Nikayas - and in my experience so far, there may be less tendency towards misunderstanding. A coherent theoretical model is valuable.

Peace,
Shonin


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