I am researching on the origin of the concept of "I" historically, anthropologicaly in buddhist context.
Are there any written insights presented in the sutras or research that has been done by institutions?
Many thanks in advance.
Gassho
WagamamaZen
Origin of concept of "I"
- WagamamaZen
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Re: Origin of concept of "I"
I'm am not sure if this is what you are looking for, but in my understanding of the Buddhist teaching the origin of the concept of "I" is delusion.
With Metta
- WagamamaZen
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Re: Origin of concept of "I"
Yes, I know the concept of "I" is a delusion, a mere concept, but what I am looking for is how the delusion got started. What's the function of this delusion? Is it to enlarge our ego, to attain more power within a social group ... etc. I always think that if the apes were the first to realize the concept of "I" in pre-stone age or stone age - because one ape had a lightbulb moment after he had learned how to use a piece of cattle bone as a weapon, felt that he could use it to rule over a group, and possibly that's how the first concept of "I" arose ? Of course, this is just my wild supposition. No in depth study or proof.
Re: Origin of concept of "I"
I suspect that at least higher animals must have some concept of self even if it's a primitive one. But basically it is only because of identity concepts such as 'I', 'you', 'cup', etc that abstract thought and language are possible. The mistake is in not realising that these are all symbols rather than being real things out in the world.
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Re: Origin of concept of "I"
Which do you want? The origin of the 'I' concept in Buddhism (you're in the right place) or the origin of the 'I' concept as an evolutionary tool (you're in the wrong place). I'm not sure what you want
Re: Origin of concept of "I"
One has to be careful. The concept of "I" is not a delusion. It's a concept. The origin of the concept "I am" is ignorance. Delusion is to take that concept (that "I am") for granted. The delusion got started because of ignorance.WagamamaZen wrote:Yes, I know the concept of "I" is a delusion, a mere concept, but what I am looking for is how the delusion got started.
best wishes, acinteyyo
Thag 1.20. Ajita - I do not fear death; nor do I long for life. I’ll lay down this body, aware and mindful.
Re: Origin of concept of "I"
For the practicing Buddhist the origin of "I" is not as important as the cessation of "I".
“You are like a man who has been shot with a poison arrow and who, when the doctor comes to remove it, says ‘Wait! Before the arrow is removed I want to know the name of the man who shot it, what clan he comes from, which village he was born in. I want to know what type of wood his bow is made from, what feathers are on the end of the arrow, how long the arrows are, etc., etc.’ That man would die before all these questions could be answered. My job is to help you to remove the arrow of suffering from yourself” (Majjhima Nikaya Sutta No. 63).
Liberation is the inevitable fruit of the path and is bound to blossom forth when there is steady and persistent practice. The only requirements for reaching the final goal are two: to start and to continue. If these requirements are met there is no doubt the goal will be attained. This is the Dhamma, the undeviating law.
- BB
- BB
Re: Origin of concept of "I"
Well, I'd like to believe animals which can recognize themselves in a mirror have a sense of self since they can recognize it, and maybe also animals who live within a social structure, as they'd have to know their place.
"What holds attention determines action." - William James
- WagamamaZen
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Re: Origin of concept of "I"
Appreciate each of your input and sharing.
If "I" is a concept that is born out of ignorance. What has kept this concept going for so many centuries?
What is the award ?
If "I" is a concept that is born out of ignorance. What has kept this concept going for so many centuries?
What is the award ?
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Re: Origin of concept of "I"
The hope and desire for something better. But the actual award is:WagamamaZen wrote: If "I" is a concept that is born out of ignorance. What has kept this concept going for so many centuries?
What is the award ?
Dukkha (suffering)
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Re: Origin of concept of "I"
The Aggañña Sutta (DN 27) suggests that this may have originated with the evolution of the first forms of life.WagamamaZen wrote:
Are there any written insights presented in the sutras or research that has been done by institutions?
The "creatures" mentioned could be single-celled organisms which we know from biology have no gender, just as it is mentioned in the Suttas. Evolutionary biology suggests that the first forms life multiplied asexually and it would appear to do so at least sub-consciously through some sort of desire to continue to exist or out of greed, again completely in line with the Sutta account.Then, after some very long time, when the World began to expand again, many of these Abbhasara creatures were born to the newly formed Earth. They floated above and around the Earth. At this time, there were not yet seen the Moon and the Sun, there were not yet Night and Day, there were not yet names and identity or female or male. The creatures were only known for creatures.
At that period, Vasettha, there was just one mass of water, and all was darkness, blinding darkness.... And sooner or later, after a very long period of time, savory earth spread itself over the waters where those beings were. It looked just like the skin that forms itself over hot milk as it cools. It was endowed with color, smell, and taste. It was the color of fine ghee or heated butter and it was very sweet, like pure wild honey
Some of the creatures of light (the Abbhasaras) who had curiosity and a greedy nature began to dive and taste the savory Earth's substance. At that moment, the creature found out that it tasted so delicious. Thus, greed started to seep in and it ate the substance voraciously, greedily, thus calling also its comrades (who were flying above and on earth) to join in the feast. Not long afterwards, the creatures began to eat so greedily and due to the huge amount of the mud substance, they could feed on it for a very long time.
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Re: Origin of concept of "I"
The concept of "I" is not a delusion. The delusion is that the "I" is more than it is, and what it is is an evolutionary construct around which information is organaized for our survival. Greed, hatred and ignorance/delusion. We grasp after those things that support or feed a sense of "I" and we push away those those things that threaten the sense of "I" and we imagine that the "I" is an unchanging, independent thingie. We see the rudiments of it even in simple life forms. Poke a worm with something pointy and it recoils.WagamamaZen wrote:Yes, I know the concept of "I" is a delusion, a mere concept, but what I am looking for is how the delusion got started.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.
“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.
“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
Re: Origin of concept of "I"
Craving is what kept it going. Dukkha is its award.WagamamaZen wrote:Appreciate each of your input and sharing.
If "I" is a concept that is born out of ignorance. What has kept this concept going for so many centuries?
What is the award ?
Re: Origin of concept of "I"
As other have already said, I too believe the reason why the notion of "I" exists is because of attachment to ideas of "I am better", "I am prettier", "I am smarter". These ideas are perceived as a source of a good feeling, then desire for having them again arises, then craving and then clinging.
With Metta
- WagamamaZen
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Re: Origin of concept of "I"
Seems like our cravings began with a single cell organism that loved the taste of food.
Shall explore Agganna Sutta. It looks interesting.
Thank you to each of you.
Gassho
WagamamaZen
Shall explore Agganna Sutta. It looks interesting.
Thank you to each of you.
Gassho
WagamamaZen