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Materialism, Dualism, Buddhism - Page 4 - Dhamma Wheel

Materialism, Dualism, Buddhism

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths. What can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
Sylvester
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Re: Materialism, Dualism, Buddhism

Postby Sylvester » Thu Jul 15, 2010 3:09 am


Nyana
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Re: Materialism, Dualism, Buddhism

Postby Nyana » Thu Jul 15, 2010 6:12 am


Nyana
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Re: Materialism, Dualism, Buddhism

Postby Nyana » Thu Jul 15, 2010 6:32 am


Sylvester
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Re: Materialism, Dualism, Buddhism

Postby Sylvester » Thu Jul 15, 2010 7:12 am


PeterB
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Re: Materialism, Dualism, Buddhism

Postby PeterB » Thu Jul 15, 2010 7:27 am


Shonin
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Re: Materialism, Dualism, Buddhism

Postby Shonin » Thu Jul 15, 2010 7:56 am

Last edited by Shonin on Thu Jul 15, 2010 8:53 am, edited 2 times in total.

PeterB
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Re: Materialism, Dualism, Buddhism

Postby PeterB » Thu Jul 15, 2010 8:16 am

Good for Bhikkhu Bodhi. Sometimes that's the best way. The Buddhadhamma does not happen in a debating chamber.
As my wife once noted, one of the leading current Theravadin figures once said in conversation and off the record " even the best of the Mahayana represents the gilding of the lily ". And away from joint platforms celebrating Wesak, or public forums ,it is widely known that this represents the actual default position for much of the Theravada even though its un-pc to say so.
The fact is that the default position of the Mahayana is that it contains and subsumes the Theravada.
The default position of the Theravada is that the Mahayana represents an extraneous development that has led to the arising of a different religion with some shared vocabulary.
It would be more honest and much more likely to result in genuine reproachment if that were freely acknowledged instead of an attempted shotgun marriage by those demanding to be loved.

Shonin
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Re: Materialism, Dualism, Buddhism

Postby Shonin » Thu Jul 15, 2010 8:48 am


PeterB
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Re: Materialism, Dualism, Buddhism

Postby PeterB » Thu Jul 15, 2010 9:02 am

I spent more than 20 years hearing what the Mahayanists ACTUALLY say about the Theravada Shonin. That's how I know that most Buddhist Ecumenicism is b.s. I have heard it from both sides and I know the real situation away from Buddhist forums and good intentions..
The real hope is for an honest acknowledgment of genuine differences, and for a reaching out in friendship in the face of those differences. Not attempting to cloak them or finding a form of words that superficially satisfies everyone but actually just papers over the cracks. Its not a matter of our champion/s against his champions..that's been done to death.
The actual possibility for real reproachment lies entirely within the experiential, and I don't mean the interpretation of the experiential. But the nuts and bolts..what actually happens in Zazen..what actually happens in Vipassana how do they differ or not experientially..That way there is hope for mutual understanding. But it will need to start with throwing the books away and leaving the scholars on an allegorical island to debate until they are blue in the face while the world goes on around them.

Shonin
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Re: Materialism, Dualism, Buddhism

Postby Shonin » Thu Jul 15, 2010 10:49 am


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tiltbillings
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Re: Materialism, Dualism, Buddhism

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Nyana
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Re: Materialism, Dualism, Buddhism

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Sylvester
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Re: Materialism, Dualism, Buddhism

Postby Sylvester » Thu Jul 15, 2010 3:17 pm


Nyana
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Re: Materialism, Dualism, Buddhism

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EricJ
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Re: Materialism, Dualism, Buddhism

Postby EricJ » Thu Jul 15, 2010 7:19 pm

I do not want my house to be walled in on sides and my windows to be stuffed. I want the cultures of all the lands to be blown about my house as freely as possible. But I refuse to be blown off my feet by any.- Gandhi

With persistence aroused for the highest goal's attainment, with mind unsmeared, not lazy in action, firm in effort, with steadfastness & strength arisen, wander alone like a rhinoceros.

Not neglecting seclusion, absorption, constantly living the Dhamma in line with the Dhamma, comprehending the danger in states of becoming, wander alone like a rhinoceros.
- Snp. 1.3

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tiltbillings
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Re: Materialism, Dualism, Buddhism

Postby tiltbillings » Thu Jul 15, 2010 9:34 pm


Nyana
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Re: Materialism, Dualism, Buddhism

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tiltbillings
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Re: Materialism, Dualism, Buddhism

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Goedert
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Re: Materialism, Dualism, Buddhism

Postby Goedert » Fri Jul 16, 2010 12:55 am

All that expirience showed to me is:

1 - Non-Duality is dangerous, because one is not liberated and one live in a world full of duality, one can misunderstand it. That kind of thing are relevent to the work of 5 agreggates on 6 senses (How one is automatically identifying expiriencies as good and bad). But actually comprehend the term non-duality don't bring realesation of what is virtuos and is non-virtuos, what qualities bring discernement and mindfullness what qualities bring them not. We live in a word of dualism, we are in samsara because of duality and we need to get a way out of it cultivating the things that bring good qualities and cessation, if we try to use the non-duality (the phenomenas have being primordialy pure understanding) term we are imagineting things, we are beliving how the thing work, so why achive nibbana?

2 - Emptiness, this is a dangerous term also, one may comprehend that wrathful, harsh and bad acts is the same as loving-kindness, gentile and good acts. The Buddha teached anatta not emptiness, suffering exist, impermence exist, sense of I exist, they doesn't exist in nibbana.

Every term used from a conditioned mind, imersed in duality, trying to comprehend or describe the comprehension of nibbana is a foolish thing to do. Even the Buddha didn't do that.

"My" experience in Tibetan Buddhism put many wrong views in the mind, I could only realese them with theravadin method. Seeing the three caracteristics of existence: Dukkha, Anicca, Anatta; The occultation of three caracteristics: Iriyapatha, Santati, Gana.

If one don't see the three caracteristics he don't have the dhamma eye. When one see it he realese many wrong views.

After, one seen the Paticcasumuppada with pancanivarana, etc. In essence one realese there is nothing mistic, nothing from another world, it is HERE and NOW.

Kind regards,
Friends wish all you well.

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EricJ
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Re: Materialism, Dualism, Buddhism

Postby EricJ » Fri Jul 16, 2010 7:59 am

Tilt and Geoff,

In reading his book, I was often a little puzzled at some of his language and some parts of the book seemed contradictory. For instance, I recall one of his criticisms of Western Buddhist scholars involved the tendency of these philosophers to superimpose Western philosophical conventions on Buddhist thought. He specifically mentions the label 'monism' which some of these scholars supposedly assigned to Buddhism. However, in his chapter on 'Doctrines Common to All Mahayanists' he claims that Mahayana shares 'immanentist' points-of-view with Christian mysticism, Sufism, and Vedanta. I can't help but wonder if he included these types of comparisons to keep his descriptions in line with one of the stated purposes of his book: expressing Buddhist thought in the terminologies and bases of Western philosophical tradition.

However, I still feel as if the passages I quoted are relevant to this topic and clearly demonstrate what is wrong with Bhikkhu Bodhi's essay on Mahayana/Madhyamaka thought. These passages certainly helped me clarify some concepts. I think that if we were to replace the word 'Absolute' with 'the experience of enlightenment' or 'Nibbana,' some of the monistic overtones disappear and we are left with a very clear understanding of what is meant by Madhyamika nonduality and the identification of samsara with Nibbana. I think [perhaps erroneously] that this identification of samsara with Nirvana is an attempt to talk about how enlightened beings experience Nibbana and how enlightened beings experience a world which is samsara for the unenlightened, as opposed to an absolute identification of the two as Bhikkhu Bodhi and many non-Mahayanists claim. Conze seems to be saying that the Mahayana/Madhyamaka believes that enlightened beings don't experience, define or 'think of' Nibbana as a duality between the experiences of samsara and enlightenment. I also found an aspect of this idea in a later part of his book, in which he claims that the tradition of Mahayana Buddhist Logic defined words as characterizations of conventional experience based on the exclusion of all that is not that word. Words are based on papanca. Nibbana is not experienced as everything that is not Nibbana, and it is certainly not experienced through the obscurations of papanca. Rather, it is experienced as it is, without reference to the conventional experience of samsara which could act as an oppositional concept. We can't say that the enlightened experience samsara, because that contradicts the truth of their enlightenment. Nor can we say that the enlightened even 'experience' Nibbana, because Nibbana is not an object which can be 'had' or 'experienced' by a falsely reified self.

This is my interpretation of Conze's views and of Madhyamaka. I don't know if this is correct or not. Personally, as a highly unenlightened being, I am content to let the enlightened be enlightened without trying to describe an experience I have never 'had' with words I get from others.
I do not want my house to be walled in on sides and my windows to be stuffed. I want the cultures of all the lands to be blown about my house as freely as possible. But I refuse to be blown off my feet by any.- Gandhi

With persistence aroused for the highest goal's attainment, with mind unsmeared, not lazy in action, firm in effort, with steadfastness & strength arisen, wander alone like a rhinoceros.

Not neglecting seclusion, absorption, constantly living the Dhamma in line with the Dhamma, comprehending the danger in states of becoming, wander alone like a rhinoceros.
- Snp. 1.3


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