Arahants Tears

An open and inclusive investigation into Buddhism and spiritual cultivation

Re: Arahants Tears

Postby bodom » Thu Feb 12, 2009 6:54 pm

You are using logic to assume an arahant cannot cry.

So, as I said, Kalamas: 'Don't go by reports, by legends, by traditions, by scripture, by logical conjecture, by inference, by analogies, by agreement through pondering views, by probability, or by the thought, "This contemplative is our teacher."

When you yourself reach arahantship then you can tell us all if you cry or not. Until then dont hold so tightly to your view.

:namaste:
The heart of the path is SO simple. No need for long explanations. Give up clinging to love and hate, just rest with things as they are. That is all I do in my own practice. Do not try to become anything. Do not make yourself into anything. Do not be a meditator. Do not become enlightened. When you sit, let it be. When you walk, let it be. Grasp at nothing. Resist nothing. Of course, there are dozens of meditation techniques to develop samadhi and many kinds of vipassana. But it all comes back to this - just let it all be. Step over here where it is cool, out of the battle. - Ajahn Chah
User avatar
bodom
 
Posts: 4605
Joined: Fri Jan 09, 2009 6:18 pm
Location: San Antonio, Texas

Re: Arahants Tears

Postby clw_uk » Thu Feb 12, 2009 6:56 pm

The buddha didnt deny logics worth, just to be wary of it and dont rely on it.

From what I can understand they cant cry because of emotion, but i may be wrong.
“ Your mind is likewise blocked. But the right road awaits you still. Cast out your doubts, your fears and your desires, let go of grief and of hope as well, for where these rule , then the mind is their subject." Boetius
User avatar
clw_uk
 
Posts: 3479
Joined: Sun Jan 11, 2009 2:36 am
Location: Wales, United Kingdom

Re: Arahants Tears

Postby bodom » Thu Feb 12, 2009 6:59 pm

clw_uk wrote:The buddha didnt deny logics worth, just to be wary of it and dont rely on it.

From what I can understand they cant cry because of emotion, but i may be wrong.


Are arahants totally void of feeling emotion? Or have they just trancended attachment to feelings in which case they still feel them, but there would be no reaction to them?

:namaste:
The heart of the path is SO simple. No need for long explanations. Give up clinging to love and hate, just rest with things as they are. That is all I do in my own practice. Do not try to become anything. Do not make yourself into anything. Do not be a meditator. Do not become enlightened. When you sit, let it be. When you walk, let it be. Grasp at nothing. Resist nothing. Of course, there are dozens of meditation techniques to develop samadhi and many kinds of vipassana. But it all comes back to this - just let it all be. Step over here where it is cool, out of the battle. - Ajahn Chah
User avatar
bodom
 
Posts: 4605
Joined: Fri Jan 09, 2009 6:18 pm
Location: San Antonio, Texas

Re: Arahants Tears

Postby clw_uk » Thu Feb 12, 2009 7:03 pm

Difficuly question, I have no definite answer.

How do you view this?

:namaste:
“ Your mind is likewise blocked. But the right road awaits you still. Cast out your doubts, your fears and your desires, let go of grief and of hope as well, for where these rule , then the mind is their subject." Boetius
User avatar
clw_uk
 
Posts: 3479
Joined: Sun Jan 11, 2009 2:36 am
Location: Wales, United Kingdom

Re: Arahants Tears

Postby bodom » Thu Feb 12, 2009 7:05 pm

clw_uk wrote:Difficuly question, I have no definite answer.

How do you view this?

:namaste:


I dont know if i have a view either way just yet. I need to do some research into this as i dont believe ive come across this in any literature that i know of.

:namaste:
The heart of the path is SO simple. No need for long explanations. Give up clinging to love and hate, just rest with things as they are. That is all I do in my own practice. Do not try to become anything. Do not make yourself into anything. Do not be a meditator. Do not become enlightened. When you sit, let it be. When you walk, let it be. Grasp at nothing. Resist nothing. Of course, there are dozens of meditation techniques to develop samadhi and many kinds of vipassana. But it all comes back to this - just let it all be. Step over here where it is cool, out of the battle. - Ajahn Chah
User avatar
bodom
 
Posts: 4605
Joined: Fri Jan 09, 2009 6:18 pm
Location: San Antonio, Texas

Re: Arahants Tears

Postby clw_uk » Thu Feb 12, 2009 7:08 pm

Let me know if you find anything that discusses it

Metta
:namaste:
“ Your mind is likewise blocked. But the right road awaits you still. Cast out your doubts, your fears and your desires, let go of grief and of hope as well, for where these rule , then the mind is their subject." Boetius
User avatar
clw_uk
 
Posts: 3479
Joined: Sun Jan 11, 2009 2:36 am
Location: Wales, United Kingdom

Re: Arahants Tears

Postby bodom » Thu Feb 12, 2009 7:08 pm

clw_uk wrote:Let me know if you find anything that discusses it

Metta
:namaste:


Will do.

:namaste:
The heart of the path is SO simple. No need for long explanations. Give up clinging to love and hate, just rest with things as they are. That is all I do in my own practice. Do not try to become anything. Do not make yourself into anything. Do not be a meditator. Do not become enlightened. When you sit, let it be. When you walk, let it be. Grasp at nothing. Resist nothing. Of course, there are dozens of meditation techniques to develop samadhi and many kinds of vipassana. But it all comes back to this - just let it all be. Step over here where it is cool, out of the battle. - Ajahn Chah
User avatar
bodom
 
Posts: 4605
Joined: Fri Jan 09, 2009 6:18 pm
Location: San Antonio, Texas

Re: Arahants Tears

Postby bodom » Thu Feb 12, 2009 7:14 pm

I found this article:

Regarding the experience of the arahant, the Suttanipaata states that by the destruction of all feelings/sensations a monk lives desireless and at peace.11 Once Saariputta was asked what happiness there can be when there is no feeling/sensation.12 He explained that the absence of feeling/sensation itself is happiness.13 It is relevant to note here that the Buddha says that he does not speak of happiness only with reference to pleasant feelings/sensations. Wherever there is happiness or pleasure, that he recognizes as happiness or pleasure.14

Here we are reminded of the statement that all mental states converge on feelings.15 What is meant by this statement seems to be that all mental states are translated into sensations in the body. It is possible to understand the import of this statement if we pay attention to a gross emotion, such as anger. When we are angry we experience a variety of bodily sensations: feeling hot, being restless, breaking out in a sweat, trepidation, etc. When we are sad, tears come into our eyes. These are brought about by changes in body chemistry through the discharge of various glandular secretions. If intense emotions bring about such gross sensations, we might conjecture that all thoughts cause subtle sensations in the body resulting from changes in body chemistry. We are hardly aware of these sensations which, however, become noticeable with the development of vedanaanupassanaa, contemplation of sensations. Thoughts are endless and continuous; therefore, if this interpretation that thoughts are translated into sensations is correct, sensations too should be endless and continuous. The Vedanaasa.myutta states that just as diverse winds constantly blow in different directions, numerous sensations pass through the body.16

An arahant has full control over his thoughts;17 therefore he must have full control over his feelings/sensations too. What is meant by the statement that "a monk lives desireless and at peace by the destruction of all feelings/sensations" seems to be that he has destroyed all psychogenic feelings/sensations. This leads us to another statement: that all feelings/sensations partake of the nature of suffering.18 In order to understand the significance of this statement we must pay attention to our postures. If we have to remain seated for some time, say for an hour, we are not even aware of how many times we shift and adjust our limbs to more comfortable positions. This happens almost mechanically, as all the time we unconsciously seek to avoid discomfort. This is because monotony of sensations, even pleasant sensations, brings about discomfort and a change brings about a temporary sensation of comfort. If there were no sensations produced from within perhaps we would not need to change positions so often and we would have a running sense of ease even if we continue to remain in the same position for a long time.

Here it might be asked whether an arahant has lost the ability to feel pain, which is also an essential part of the touch sensation. It has to be pointed out that this is not so, for in that case an arahant would not even know if a part of his body is seriously injured or burnt. There is plenty of evidence to show that an arahant does feel sensations caused by physical changes. For instance, the Buddha felt acute pain when he was wounded by a stone splinter19 and when he suffered from indigestion.20 But he was able to withstand the painful sensations with mindfulness and clear comprehension without being fatigued by them. Again, an experience of Saariputta throws light on the subject.21 His experience refers to events which modern psychology designates as "non-ordinary reality of altered states of consciousness." A yakkha, a malevolent spirit, once gave Saariputta a blow on the head. The blow, it is said, was so powerful that it was capable of splitting a mountain peak or making a seven and a half cubit high elephant go down on its knees. Moggallaana, who saw the incident with his divine eye, inquired from Saariputta how he was feeling. He replied that he was all right, but there was slight pain in the head. This shows us that a blow which could have deprived an ordinary person of life had only minimal impact on an arahant.

Perhaps because the psychological factors which predispose a person to the experience of sensations are perfectly well under control in an arahant, he experiences only those sensations that are felt purely physically by an animate
organism. It seems as if the body is under some sort of mentally regulated anesthesia which allows a narrow margin of sensation to protect the body from external danger. There are two kinds of pain, physical and mental,22 and arahants are said to experience only physical pain,23 without the anxious mental agony when experiencing physical pain.

It is also possible to look at this issue from another angle. Though the texts state that vedanaa is destroyed in the arahant, they never say that the sense faculties are destroyed. When describing the super-conscious state of sa~n~naa-vedayitanirodha, the sense faculties are said to be refined — vippasannaani indriyaani.24 So in the case of the arahant, too, the sense faculties must certainly be refined and not rendered deficient in any way. In that case it is possible to surmise that, though vedanaa is extinct, body-sensitivity continues to be active and is thoroughly refined.

Nibbana as Living Experience / The Buddha and The Arahant
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... el407.html

:namaste:
The heart of the path is SO simple. No need for long explanations. Give up clinging to love and hate, just rest with things as they are. That is all I do in my own practice. Do not try to become anything. Do not make yourself into anything. Do not be a meditator. Do not become enlightened. When you sit, let it be. When you walk, let it be. Grasp at nothing. Resist nothing. Of course, there are dozens of meditation techniques to develop samadhi and many kinds of vipassana. But it all comes back to this - just let it all be. Step over here where it is cool, out of the battle. - Ajahn Chah
User avatar
bodom
 
Posts: 4605
Joined: Fri Jan 09, 2009 6:18 pm
Location: San Antonio, Texas

Re: Arahants Tears

Postby clw_uk » Thu Feb 12, 2009 7:27 pm

Thank you for that BBB, many thanks.

:namaste:
“ Your mind is likewise blocked. But the right road awaits you still. Cast out your doubts, your fears and your desires, let go of grief and of hope as well, for where these rule , then the mind is their subject." Boetius
User avatar
clw_uk
 
Posts: 3479
Joined: Sun Jan 11, 2009 2:36 am
Location: Wales, United Kingdom

Previous

Return to Open Dhamma

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: David N. Snyder, kiwi, paddington, phil, WoodsyLadyM, Yahoo [Bot] and 4 guests