Schism and Sham Dhamma

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Schism and Sham Dhamma

Postby Goedert » Fri Jul 16, 2010 3:10 pm

Hi friends.

Maha Kassapa adressed the Buddha the following quote. There is any commentary about it? The Buddha knew that a sham dhamma will appear and the practice deteriorate and few could attain arahatship knowledge? Maybe some later divisions from the original sangha with metaphorical view, things from another dimension?

On another occasion, Kassapa asked the Buddha: "What is the reason that formerly there were fewer rules, but more monks were established in the knowledge of Arahatship, while now there are more rules, but fewer monks are established in the knowledge of Arahatship?" The Buddha replied:

"So it happens, Kassapa, when beings deteriorate and the true Dhamma vanishes: then there are more rules and fewer Arahats. There will be, however, no vanishing of the true Dhamma until a sham Dhamma arises in the world. But when a sham Dhamma arises in the world, there will be more rules and fewer Arahats.
"But, Kassapa, it is not a cataclysm of the four elements — earth, water, fire and air — that makes the Dhamma disappear. Nor is the reason for its disappearance similar to the overloading of a ship that causes it to sink. It is rather the presence of five detrimental attitudes that causes the obscuration and disappearance of the Dhamma.

"These are the five: it is the lack of respect and regard for the Buddha, the Dhamma, the Sangha, the training, and for meditative concentration, on the part of monks and nuns, and male and female lay devotees. But so long as there is respect and regard for those five things, the Dhamma will remain free of obscuration and will not disappear."

— S.16:13
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Re: Schism and Sham Dhamma

Postby mikenz66 » Fri Jul 16, 2010 9:28 pm

Hi Goedert,

There is quite a lot of reference to the commentaries in Bhikkhu Bodhi's tranlation, which runs:
That's the way it is, Kassapa. When beings are deteriorating and the True Dhamma is disappearing there are more training rules but fewer Bhikkhus are established in final knowledge. Kassapa, the true Dhamma does not disappear so long as a counterfeit of the true Dhamma has not arisen in the world. But when a counterfeit of the true Dhamma arises in the world, then the true Dhamma disappears.

Bhikkhu Bodhi notes that these questions presage Ven Kassapa's role as convener of the First Council.
The Commentary notes that there are two counterfeits:
1. With respect to attainment (adhigama), i.e. the corruptions of insight.
2. With respect to learning (pariyatti).
Bhikkhu Bodhi mentiones some discussion in the ancient and later commentaries about texts considered to be counterfeit...

This same question is asked in MN65:
http://awake.kiev.ua/dhamma/tipitaka/2S ... li-e1.html
(Not an easy translation to read...)
'Venerable sir, what is the reason that earlier, with few rules many bhikkhus attained extinction, and now with many rules a few bhikkhus attain extinction?' 'Baddali, it happens when human beings diminish in good and when the Teaching deteriorates. Many rules are appointed few bhikkhus attain extinction. Bhaddali, the Teacher does not appoint a rule until a fall for desires is evident, when falls for desires are evident among the Community, the Teacher appoints a rule for the dispelling of those falls for desires. Until the Community grows large, these falls for desires do not become evident. Until the Community become the highest gainers, the Community reaches the highest fame, become the most learned, the long standing ones, a fall for desires does not become evident. Bhaddali, when a bhikkhu becomes a long standing one a fall for desires becomes evident and then the Teacher appoints a rule to dispel those falls for desires. '


MN104 http://awake.kiev.ua/dhamma/tipitaka/2S ... ama-e.html
also has some relevance (Nanamoli/Bodhi translation):
A dispute about livelihood or about the Patimokkha would be trifling, Ananda. But should a dispute areise in the Sangha about the path or the way, such a dispute would be for the harm and unhappiness of many, fo rhe loss, harm and suffering of gods and humans.


See MN48.2:
http://awake.kiev.ua/dhamma/tipitaka/2S ... ta-e1.html
... the Bhikkhus at Kosambi had taken to quarrelling and brawling and were deep in disputes, stabbing each other with verbal daggers. They could neither convince each other or be convinced by others; they could neither persuade each other or be persuaded by others.


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Re: Schism and Sham Dhamma

Postby Goedert » Fri Jul 16, 2010 10:49 pm

Thanks Mike.
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Re: Schism and Sham Dhamma

Postby retrofuturist » Fri Jul 16, 2010 11:50 pm

Greetings,

Goedert wrote:... until a sham Dhamma arises in the world.

It would be interesting to know what the original Pali was that has been translated here as "sham Dhamma" is, and whether the commentators gave a definition / explanation for it.

Metta,
Retro. :)
If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding:
Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)


Exalted in mind, just open and clearly aware, the recluse trained in the ways of the sages:
One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7


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Re: Schism and Sham Dhamma

Postby mikenz66 » Sat Jul 17, 2010 12:01 am

Hi Retro,
retrofuturist wrote:It would be interesting to know what the original Pali was that has been translated here as "sham Dhamma" is, and whether the commentators gave a definition / explanation for it.

Saddhammapatirupaka Sutta: A Counterfeit of the True Dhamma
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html
I can't help with the details of the Pali, but as you can see above Bhikkhu Bodhi and Thanissaro Bhikkhu translate it as "counterfeit".

As I indicated above, Bhikkhu Bodhi gives two classifications of counterfeit Dhamma from the Commentary. The first involving being mistaken about attainments, the second being inauthentic texts.

Mike
Last edited by mikenz66 on Sat Jul 17, 2010 12:57 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Schism and Sham Dhamma

Postby retrofuturist » Sat Jul 17, 2010 12:13 am

Greetings,

SN 16:13 In Pali...

Saddhammappatirūpakasuttaṃ

Evaṃ me sutaṃ – ekaṃ samayaṃ bhagavā sāvatthiyaṃ viharati jetavane anāthapiṇḍikassa ārāme. Atha kho āyasmā mahākassapo yena bhagavā tenupasaṅkami; upasaṅkamitvā bhagavantaṃ abhivādetvā ekamantaṃ nisīdi. Ekamantaṃ nisinno kho āyasmā mahākassapo bhagavantaṃ etadavoca – ‘‘ko nu kho, bhante, hetu ko paccayo, yena pubbe appatarāni ceva sikkhāpadāni ahesuṃ bahutarā ca bhikkhū aññāya saṇṭhahiṃsu? Ko pana, bhante, hetu ko paccayo, yenetarahi bahutarāni ceva sikkhāpadāni appatarā ca bhikkhū aññāya saṇṭhahantī’’ti? ‘‘Evañcetaṃ, kassapa, hoti sattesu hāyamānesu saddhamme antaradhāyamāne, bahutarāni ceva sikkhāpadāni honti appatarā ca bhikkhū aññāya saṇṭhahanti. Na tāva, kassapa, saddhammassa antaradhānaṃ hoti yāva na saddhammappatirūpakaṃ loke uppajjati. Yato ca kho, kassapa, saddhammappatirūpakaṃ loke uppajjati, atha saddhammassa antaradhānaṃ hoti’’.

‘‘Seyyathāpi, kassapa, na tāva jātarūpassa antaradhānaṃ hoti yāva na jātarūpappatirūpakaṃ loke uppajjati. Yato ca kho, kassapa, jātarūpappatirūpakaṃ loke uppajjati, atha jātarūpassa antaradhānaṃ hoti. Evameva kho, kassapa, na tāva saddhammassa antaradhānaṃ hoti yāva na saddhammappatirūpakaṃ loke uppajjati. Yato ca kho, kassapa, saddhammappatirūpakaṃ loke uppajjati, atha saddhammassa antaradhānaṃ hoti.

‘‘Na kho, kassapa, pathavīdhātu saddhammaṃ antaradhāpeti, na āpodhātu saddhammaṃ antaradhāpeti, na tejodhātu saddhammaṃ antaradhāpeti, na vāyodhātu saddhammaṃ antaradhāpeti; atha kho idheva te uppajjanti moghapurisā ye imaṃ saddhammaṃ antaradhāpenti. Seyyathāpi, kassapa, nāvā ādikeneva opilavati; na kho, kassapa, evaṃ saddhammassa antaradhānaṃ hoti.

‘‘Pañca khome, kassapa, okkamaniyā dhammā saddhammassa sammosāya antaradhānāya saṃvattanti. Katame pañca? Idha, kassapa, bhikkhū bhikkhuniyo upāsakā upāsikāyo satthari agāravā viharanti appatissā, dhamme agāravā viharanti appatissā, saṅghe agāravā viharanti appatissā, sikkhāya agāravā viharanti appatissā, samādhismiṃ agāravā viharanti appatissā – ime kho, kassapa, pañca okkamaniyā dhammā saddhammassa sammosāya antaradhānāya saṃvattanti.

‘‘Pañca khome, kassapa, dhammā saddhammassa ṭhitiyā asammosāya anantaradhānāya saṃvattanti. Katame pañca? Idha, kassapa, bhikkhū bhikkhuniyo upāsakā upāsikāyo satthari sagāravā viharanti sappatissā, dhamme sagāravā viharanti sappatissā, saṅghe sagāravā viharanti sappatissā, sikkhāya sagāravā viharanti sappatissā, samādhismiṃ sagāravā viharanti sappatissā – ime kho, kassapa, pañca dhammā saddhammassa ṭhitiyā asammosāya anantaradhānāya saṃvattantī’’ti. Terasamaṃ.

Kassapasaṃyuttaṃ samattaṃ.

Tassuddānaṃ –

Santuṭṭhañca anottappī, candūpamaṃ kulūpakaṃ;

Jiṇṇaṃ tayo ca ovādā, jhānābhiññā upassayaṃ;

Cīvaraṃ paraṃmaraṇaṃ, saddhammappatirūpakanti.

Anyone care to work out which Pali words refer to "counterfeit" or "sham". Does the compound term "addhammappatirūpakaṃ" mean "counterfeit dhamma"?

I'm surprised to see saddhammassa translated as "True Dhamma" though... I would have expected it to be "good Dhamma", perhaps lucky I'm not a translator then. :tongue:

Metta,
Retro. :)
If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding:
Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)


Exalted in mind, just open and clearly aware, the recluse trained in the ways of the sages:
One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7


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Re: Schism and Sham Dhamma

Postby Goedert » Sat Jul 17, 2010 12:46 am

That was an earlier translation by the german bhikkhu Nyanaponika Thera.
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Re: Schism and Sham Dhamma

Postby rowyourboat » Fri Jul 30, 2010 9:09 pm

I think 'adhamma' is sham dhamma. Sadhamma is true/good dhamma.
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Re: Schism and Sham Dhamma

Postby fig tree » Sat Jul 31, 2010 1:53 pm

Bear in mind that I don't know Pāli:

Na (not) tāva (as far as), kassapa (Kassapa), saddhammassa (true dharma) antaradhānaṃ (disappear) hoti (exists) yāva (as long as) na (not) saddhammappatirūpakaṃ (a false semblance to the true dharma) loke (world) uppajjati (arises).


I don't see "saddhammappatirūpakaṃ" in the dictionary as such, but it seems to be a compound of "saddhamma" and "patirūpaka", which one dictionary translates as, "resembling; disguised as; in the appearance of; imposter." It also has for instance "mittapatirūpaka" as "false friend". "Pati-" has a connotation of "against" or "counter", and "rūpa" is "form".

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