First off All and answer to bens post
Just on your last post answering Tilt, I think there is a world of difference between clinging to a concept such as rebirth and defending its place in the Dhamma
I dont want to remove rebirth from the dhamma, just restore it to its original context, use and meaning.
The entire Tipitaka is infused with the concept of rebirth
Not the entire Tipitaka
So prevalent is rebirth than one can say that it is central to the Dhamma.
This is where my argument comes from, the blurring of the mundane view which contains rebirth and the supermundane which is about dependent origination and emptiness, I will return to this later.
The process of rebirth is explained in atomic detail in the 'higher teaching' or Abhidhamma.
I will address this later as well, as you know i dont hold the abhidhamma to be the teaching of the buddha himself.
I think Craig it would be wise not to fall into the same trap of what you are accusing Tilt of - be careful not to develop aversion to rebirth.
I completely agree with you, i do not avert from it, it is because of the view of rebirth that i started with that helped me understand the higherdhamma and now i see the folly of the rebirth view.
'put it to the side', and continue with your practice. In time, through bhavana-maya-panna, the panoramic vision of 'seeing things as they really are' will reveal to you the true nature of nama and rupa, and this knowledge is beyond concepts.
I would agree but many buddhist dont realise it is a mundane teaching, taught for a reason and not the ultimate truth, to put it to the side doesnt solve it as the view being held does not get addressed, it remains but hidden.
Now for the quotes to back my points
First of all lets start with the misunderstanding of dependent origination as an expanation of rebirth, to save time copying this out again please refer to my last few posts here
http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.ph ... &start=120" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Also i would like to bring in the quote of Ajahn Chah here
To become glad, is to be born; to become dejected, is to die. Having died, we are born again; having been born, we die again. This birth and death from one moment to the next is the endless spinning wheel of samsara.
In true dhamma teaching it is about the birth and death of the sense of self.
Through Contact there comes craving, clinging, becoming, birth of self.
That is dependent origination.
Also The four noble truths are not about rebirth, it is higher dhamma, it wasnt taught to the lay remember in the buddhas time.
Now what is right view with effluents
"And what is the right view that has effluents, sides with merit, & results in acquisitions? 'There is what is given, what is offered, what is sacrificed. There are fruits & results of good & bad actions. There is this world & the next world. There is mother & father. There are spontaneously reborn beings; there are priests & contemplatives who, faring rightly & practicing rightly, proclaim this world & the next after having directly known & realized it for themselves.' This is the right view that has effluents, sides with merit, & results in acquisitions.
It includes rebirth, it is good because it enstills morality, it however still leads to becoming, to dukkha it is not release.
What is an effluent? it is a taint
68. Saying, "Good, friend," the bhikkhus delighted and rejoiced in the Venerable Sariputta's words. Then they asked him a further question: "But, friend, might there be another way in which a noble disciple is one of right view, whose view is straight, who has perfect confidence in the Dhamma and has arrived at this true Dhamma?" — "There might be, friends.
69. "When, friends, a noble disciple understands the taints, the origin of the taints, the cessation of the taints, and the way leading to the cessation of the taints, in that way he is one of right view, whose view is straight, who has perfect confidence in the Dhamma and has arrived at this true Dhamma.
70. "And what are the taints, what is the origin of the taints, what is the cessation of the taints, what is the way leading to the cessation of the taints? There are three taints: the taint of sensual desire, the taint of being and the taint of ignorance. With the arising of ignorance there is the arising of the taints. With the cessation of ignorance there is the cessation of the taints. The way leading to the cessation of the taints is just this Noble Eightfold Path; that is, right view, right intention, right speech, right action, right livelihood, right effort, right mindfulness and right concentration.
71. "When a noble disciple has thus understood the taints, the origin of the taints, the cessation of the taints, and the way leading to the cessation of the taints, he entirely abandons the underlying tendency to lust, he abolishes the underlying tendency to aversion, he extirpates the underlying tendency to the view and conceit 'I am,' and by abandoning ignorance and arousing true knowledge he here and now makes an end of suffering. In that way too a noble disciple is one of right view, whose view is straight, who has perfect confidence in the Dhamma and has arrived at this true Dhamma."
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... html#asava" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Rebirth has the taint of either sensual desire, taint of being or ignorance (or all three)
It does not lead to nibbana if held to because you hold to something that is tainted, a taint holds you back
"And what is the right view that is without effluents, transcendent, a factor of the path? The discernment, the faculty of discernment, the strength of discernment, analysis of qualities as a factor for Awakening, the path factor of right view of one developing the noble path whose mind is noble, whose mind is free from effluents, who is fully possessed of the noble path. This is the right view that is without effluents, transcendent, a factor of the path.
No taints, no rebirth view.
What is right view with not taints?
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... html#asava" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Notice the last right view includes the view of taints, one of which is to know the tainted view of rebirth, the taint of and in rebirth. Also notice there is no mention of rebirth, only birth and death but as ajahn chah stated in my last quote
To become glad, is to be born; to become dejected, is to die. Having died, we are born again; having been born, we die again. This birth and death from one moment to the next is the endless spinning wheel of samsara.
Now onto my point of what the supermundane dhamma, that which if you want nibbana needs to be embraced and understood
So prevalent is rebirth than one can say that it is central to the Dhamma.
It is emptiness
[Mogharaja:]
Twice now, O Sakyan,
I've asked you,
but you, One with vision,
haven't answered me.
When asked the third time
the celestial seer answers:
so I have heard.
This world, the next world,
the Brahma world with its devas:
I don't know how they're viewed
by the glorious Gotama.
So to the one who has seen
to the far extreme,
I've come with a question:
How does one view the world
so as not to be seen
by Death's king?
[The Buddha:]
View the world, Mogharaja,
as empty —
always mindful
to have removed any view
about self.
This way one is above & beyond death.
This is how one views the world
so as not to be seen
by Death's king.
It is not rebirth beacuse rebirth is tainted with view of self, leads to future becoming, to dukkha
Now I dont deny the buddha taught rebirth, but as mundane.
Now I would like to address the abhidhamma and commentaries
In the same way, in the course of the future there will be monks who won't listen when discourses that are words of the Tathagata -- deep, deep in their meaning, transcendent, connected with emptiness -- are being recited. They won't lend ear, won't set their hearts on knowing them, won't regard these teachings as worth grasping or mastering. But they will listen when discourses that are literary works -- the works of poets, elegant in sound, elegant in rhetoric, the work of outsiders, words of disciples -- are recited. They will lend ear and set their hearts on knowing them. They will regard these teachings as worth grasping & mastering.
The abhidhamma and to some extent the commentaries blur the line between rebirth and emptiness, the mundane and supermundane.
Supermundane is concerned with emptiness
mundane is with rebirth
Rebirth was a moral teaching, that is, its concerned with eternalism, not connected with emptiness, not connected with release.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
"There is the case where a woman or man is one who harms beings with his/her fists, with clods, with sticks, or with knives. Through having adopted & carried out such actions, on the break-up of the body, after death, he/she reappears in the plane of deprivation... If instead he/she comes to the human state, then he/she is sickly wherever reborn. This is the way leading to sickliness: to be one who harms beings with one's fists, with clods, with sticks, or with knives
See it says HE or SHE will reappear, come again, the same person. Its mundane, wont lead to nibbana because its about self.
Now in conclusion
There is a teaching of rebirth, but it was mundane, connected with eternalism and morality
It is not the central teaching, to hold it does not lead to nibbana
some quotes from ajahn chah again to back my point
The real foundation of the teaching is to see the self as being empty. But people come to study the Dhamma to increase their self-view, so they don’t want to experience suffering or difficulty. They want everything to be cozy. They may want to transcend suffering, but if there is still a self, how can they ever do so?
People don’t study that which is beyond good and evil. This is what they should study. "I’m going to be like this; I’m going to be like that," they say. But they never say, "I’m not going to be anything because there really isn’t any ‘I’." This they don’t study.
rebirth is about good and evil, about being this and becoming that
No one born and no one to die! Those who speak of birth and death are speaking the language of ignorant children. In the language of the heart, of Dhamma, there are no such things as birth and death."
There is no birth, death, rebirth because there is emptiness of self, there is no rebirth
Hope this covers it enough. If there is anything left out please point it out so i can address it.
