About not kill any living being

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Re: About not kill any living being

Postby dhamma_spoon » Sun Jul 18, 2010 3:08 pm

Goedert wrote:Friends,

You can try to use incense. Insects don't like smoke.

You can try to make the Heaven tapeworm place, try to make a place with nutrients they like, things to they live on. Then when all of them get into the Heaven tapeworm place, get it out of your house and put it far away, put it on the woods.

Hope it helps.


That's pretty creative, Goedert. :geek:
I have rats and squirrels living in my attic. They make the attic look like a real jungle and smelly too!
How do I persuade them to leave, peacefully?

Thanks,

Tep
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Re: About not kill any living being

Postby octathlon » Sun Jul 18, 2010 4:05 pm

Goedert wrote:Friends,

You can try to use incense. Insects don't like smoke.

You can try to make the Heaven tapeworm place, try to make a place with nutrients they like, things to they live on. Then when all of them get into the Heaven tapeworm place, get it out of your house and put it far away, put it on the woods.

Hope it helps.

Hi Goedert,

The tapeworm already has a place with nutrients it likes, namely, your intestines! :shock: In other words, only by killing the tapeworm can it be removed from your body.
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Re: About not kill any living being

Postby octathlon » Sun Jul 18, 2010 4:21 pm

dhamma_spoon wrote:I have rats and squirrels living in my attic. They make the attic look like a real jungle and smelly too!
How do I persuade them to leave, peacefully?

Thanks,

Tep
-----

I remember once, my grandfather found how they (squirrels) were getting in his attic, and he put wire mesh over the holes and solved it. If tree branches are near a vent or hole in your attic wall or roof, both squirrels and rats can climb the tree and get in that way. Rats can also come in at the ground floor or foundation, so you need to check everywhere for holes and evidence (droppings) to show where they are coming in and seal it off. You can use live traps to remove them, but unless you seal off the attic or house, they will just come back in. Also, when you clean up your attic, you should wear a dust mask so you don't breath in anything...

:smile:
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Re: About not kill any living being

Postby adosa » Sun Jul 18, 2010 4:41 pm

dhamma_spoon wrote:
Wind wrote:
octathlon wrote:A tapeworm is infesting you and threatening your life, but you must not kill it?



That tapeworm scenario is a tough one. What would be the best solution?


That is a tough choice to make, indeed! :thinking:
"The best solution" depends on each individual's goal of Dhamma practice. If we aim at Stream-entry, then absolutely we abstain from killing -- all kinds.

Tep
-----


I'm not so sure that is entirely true. Not that I am advocating killing but the Suttas are full of examples of those who had less than stellar sila prior to stream-entry and yet insight still arose. In the greater scheme of things, curing yourself of a tapeworm so that you can continue towards stream-entry might be a preferable course of action than to succumb to death prior to any realization. Tough call. What would you do if a beloved family member had a tapeworm? Being worldly beings still (most of us anyway) sometime you have to put aside the philosophical speculation in favor of the practical.

Do you wash your bed sheets?


adosa
"To avoid all evil, to cultivate good, and to cleanse one's mind — this is the teaching of the Buddhas" - Dhammapada 183
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Re: About not kill any living being

Postby dhamma_spoon » Sun Jul 18, 2010 5:28 pm

Hi, Wind, Octathlon, Adosa --

"The best solution" depends on each individual's goal of Dhamma practice. If we aim at Stream-entry, then absolutely we abstain from killing -- all kinds.

Tep
--------------------------------

"I'm not so sure that is entirely true. Not that I am advocating killing but the Suttas are full of examples of those who had less than stellar sila prior to stream-entry and yet insight still arose. In the greater scheme of things, curing yourself of a tapeworm so that you can continue towards stream-entry might be a preferable course of action than to succumb to death prior to any realization. Tough call. What would you do if a beloved family member had a tapeworm? Being worldly beings still (most of us anyway) sometime you have to put aside the philosophical speculation in favor of the practical.

Do you wash your bed sheets?


adosa
--------------------------------

What you said is a reasonable and practical thinking of worldly beings who are concerned about protection of themselves and their properties, even if they have to kill. But abstaining from killing, the very first precept, is far from philosophical speculation by all means. Purification of virtue is a requirement for Strem-entry. The suttas that are concerned with "perfect virtues" outnumber the exceptions (e.g. Angulimala, the bandit & murderer who turned into arahant), however.

Of course my bed sheets are always washed and kept clean! :pig:

Tep
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Re: About not kill any living being

Postby dhamma_spoon » Sun Jul 18, 2010 5:37 pm

octathlon wrote:
dhamma_spoon wrote:I have rats and squirrels living in my attic. They make the attic look like a real jungle and smelly too!
How do I persuade them to leave, peacefully?

Thanks,

Tep
-----

I remember once, my grandfather found how they (squirrels) were getting in his attic, and he put wire mesh over the holes and solved it. If tree branches are near a vent or hole in your attic wall or roof, both squirrels and rats can climb the tree and get in that way. Rats can also come in at the ground floor or foundation, so you need to check everywhere for holes and evidence (droppings) to show where they are coming in and seal it off. You can use live traps to remove them, but unless you seal off the attic or house, they will just come back in. Also, when you clean up your attic, you should wear a dust mask so you don't breath in anything...

:smile:


Thank you so very much, my friend Octathlon. You gave me a very clear instruction. :heart:
I like it because now I have a choice to keep the uninvited "guests" outside my house, without killing them.

Sincerely,

Tep
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Re: About not kill any living being

Postby bodom » Sun Jul 18, 2010 5:38 pm

Hi Dhamma_Spoon

Do you have a source that states purification of virtue is a requirement for stream entry?

The only qualifications regarding stream entry found in the suttas are as follows:

Association with people of integrity is a factor for stream-entry. Listening to the true Dhamma is a factor for stream-entry. Appropriate attention is a factor for stream-entry. Practice in accordance with the Dhamma is a factor for stream-entry. - — SN 55.5


How do you reconcile your statement that purification of virtue is a requirement for stream entry with the sutta at A IV 213, when a drunken layman, sobered up through the impact of meeting the Buddha for the first time, realized stream-entry during a gradual discourse?

:anjali:
The heart of the path is SO simple. No need for long explanations. Give up clinging to love and hate, just rest with things as they are. That is all I do in my own practice. Do not try to become anything. Do not make yourself into anything. Do not be a meditator. Do not become enlightened. When you sit, let it be. When you walk, let it be. Grasp at nothing. Resist nothing. Of course, there are dozens of meditation techniques to develop samadhi and many kinds of vipassana. But it all comes back to this - just let it all be. Step over here where it is cool, out of the battle. - Ajahn Chah
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Re: About not kill any living being

Postby Kenshou » Sun Jul 18, 2010 5:50 pm

Actually, I've gotten the impression that as a matter of fact perfect sila is not a requirement for stream-entry, though of course pretty good sila probably is insofar as fairly good sila is complementary to the practice in general (enough to keep the mind unperturbed), and there are a number of suttas that even mention that a stream-enterer may do an "evil" deed, yet though because they do not conceal it and work towards improvement, they are not disqualified from sotapanna-hood. I'll try and dig up some references for that. At the moment I recall the Ratana Sutta: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .piya.html

"Any evil action he (the stream-enterer) may still do by deed, word or thought, he is incapable of concealing it; since it has been proclaimed that such concealing is impossible for one who has seen the Path (of Nibbana).[8] This precious jewel is the Sangha. By this (asseveration of the) truth may there be happiness."

On one hand we should not trivialize what it means to be a sotapanna, but on the other hand we should also be aware of how things are going to be in reality. I think the suttas in general seem to allow an understandable degree of wiggle room in regards to virtue and other purification, since though a stream-enterer has understood the 4 noble truths and how it is that nibbana is attainable, they haven't uprooted the defilements yet, so some unwholesome kamma is probably going to keep happening. But, as the discourses have said, not any deed quite so bad as to lead to a real crappy rebirth.
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Re: About not kill any living being

Postby Goedert » Sun Jul 18, 2010 7:14 pm

octathlon wrote:
Goedert wrote:Friends,

You can try to use incense. Insects don't like smoke.

You can try to make the Heaven tapeworm place, try to make a place with nutrients they like, things to they live on. Then when all of them get into the Heaven tapeworm place, get it out of your house and put it far away, put it on the woods.

Hope it helps.

Hi Goedert,

The tapeworm already has a place with nutrients it likes, namely, your intestines! :shock: In other words, only by killing the tapeworm can it be removed from your body.


Oh sorry, I do not know the mean of tapeworm, thought it was like and earthly worm...

What stupid statement of my! Let's laugh.

But anyway, still one can make it for insects, like ants, etc.

Kinds regards,
Goedert
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Re: About not kill any living being

Postby Goedert » Sun Jul 18, 2010 7:26 pm

dhamma_spoon wrote:
Goedert wrote:Friends,

You can try to use incense. Insects don't like smoke.

You can try to make the Heaven tapeworm place, try to make a place with nutrients they like, things to they live on. Then when all of them get into the Heaven tapeworm place, get it out of your house and put it far away, put it on the woods.

Hope it helps.


That's pretty creative, Goedert. :geek:
I have rats and squirrels living in my attic. They make the attic look like a real jungle and smelly too!
How do I persuade them to leave, peacefully?

Thanks,

Tep
-----


A time ago I used a trap in my work place, a used bought to caught a opossum.

Buy some glue trap for the rats or buy a box trap that don't kill but that close the door when they get the food.

The glue trap is used with a cheese, a banana or something they like. Then they will be caught and cant move. With a thick leather glove remove him in a far away place, you can try without the glove but they ceartainly will bite you fingers. Also we have to be cautious with theyre body, because the glue is very strong and we don't want that one of his members crushed or something.

The wooden box trap is easy one, you can buy them in that hunter houses, pet shops or you can make one. When they are caught you just have to open the box in the suitable place.
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Re: About not kill any living being

Postby dhamma_spoon » Sun Jul 18, 2010 7:35 pm

bodom wrote:Hi Dhamma_Spoon

Do you have a source that states purification of virtue is a requirement for stream entry?

The only qualifications regarding stream entry found in the suttas are as follows:

Association with people of integrity is a factor for stream-entry. Listening to the true Dhamma is a factor for stream-entry. Appropriate attention is a factor for stream-entry. Practice in accordance with the Dhamma is a factor for stream-entry. - — SN 55.5


How do you reconcile your statement that purification of virtue is a requirement for stream entry with the sutta at A IV 213, when a drunken layman, sobered up through the impact of meeting the Buddha for the first time, realized stream-entry during a gradual discourse?

:anjali:


Hi, Bodom -

I appreciate your formal request that I give a source of verification on purification of virtue as a Stream-entry qualification/factor of requirement.
I concur with you about the four factors FOR Stream-entry above. I interpret the fourth factor, i.e. Practice in accordance with the Dhamma, to include purification of virtue. Why? Because Sila-Samadhi-Panna is the heart of the Buddha's Dhamma practice, and perfection in Sila is satisfied at the Stream-entry level. Of course, perfection in Sila of a Sotapanna is less than that in an arahant. So the word 'perfection' is absolute only at the arahant level.

I do not have access to A IV 213, so I cannot reconcile it with my statement on purification of virtue at this point. Could you please provide a Web link to this sutta for me to study first?

Below is a collection of sutta quotes that positively confirm that purification of virtue is a requirement for stream entry.

"There is the case where the disciple of the noble ones is endowed with unwavering confidence in the Awakened One... unwavering confidence in the Dhamma... unwavering confidence in the Sangha... He/she is endowed with virtues that are appealing to the noble ones: untorn, unbroken, unspotted, unsplattered, liberating, praised by the wise, untarnished, leading to concentration." [AN 10.92]
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html

"The great earth is far greater, lord. The little bit of dust the Blessed One has picked up with the tip of his fingernail is next to nothing. It's not a hundredth, a thousandth, a one hundred-thousandth — this little bit of dust the Blessed One has picked up with the tip of his fingernail — when compared with the great earth."

"Sariputta, when you know of a householder clothed in white, that he is restrained in terms of the five training rules and that he obtains at will, without difficulty, without hardship, four pleasant mental abidings in the here & now, then if he wants he may state about himself: 'Hell is ended; animal wombs are ended; the state of the hungry shades is ended; states of deprivation, destitution, the bad bourns are ended! I am a stream-winner, steadfast, never again destined for states of woe, headed for self-awakening!' [AN 5.179]
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html

Tep: The five "training rules" are : the Five Precepts: 1. abstains from taking life, 2. abstains from taking what is not given, 3. abstains from illicit sex, 4. abstains from lying, 5. abstains from distilled & fermented drinks that cause heedlessness

The four pleasant "mental abidings" (anussati ) are : 1. endowed with unwavering faith in the Awakened One, 2. endowed with unwavering faith in the Dhamma, 3. endowed with unwavering faith in the Sangha, 4. endowed with virtues that are appealing to the noble ones: untorn, unbroken, unspotted, unsplattered, liberating, praised by the wise, untarnished, leading to concentration.


Truly,


Tep
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Re: About not kill any living being

Postby bodom » Sun Jul 18, 2010 8:06 pm

Hi Tep

I am not sure if this sutta is online anywhere. There is also the case of the drunken sotāpanna, Sarakani, in the Samyutta Nikaya 55.24, pg. 1811 in Bodhi's translation. The sutta tells of the Noble sakyan, Sarakani, who was fond of drinking yet was declared a sotāpanna after his death by the Buddha.

Here is Walshe's translation:

Sarakaani Sutta: Sarakaani (Who Took to Drink)
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .wlsh.html

The two sutta quotes you gave are listing the qualities of those ALREADY in attainment of stream entry, the virtues they now posess as stream winners, not what is required for stream entry.

:anjali:
The heart of the path is SO simple. No need for long explanations. Give up clinging to love and hate, just rest with things as they are. That is all I do in my own practice. Do not try to become anything. Do not make yourself into anything. Do not be a meditator. Do not become enlightened. When you sit, let it be. When you walk, let it be. Grasp at nothing. Resist nothing. Of course, there are dozens of meditation techniques to develop samadhi and many kinds of vipassana. But it all comes back to this - just let it all be. Step over here where it is cool, out of the battle. - Ajahn Chah
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Re: About not kill any living being

Postby dhamma_spoon » Sun Jul 18, 2010 8:17 pm

Hi again, Bodom --

I have one more source I wish to add to the other suttas I quoted from in my earlier post today.

"There is the case where a monk is fully accomplished in virtue, partially accomplished in concentration, and partially accomplished in discernment. With reference to the lesser and minor training rules, he falls into offenses and rehabilitates himself. Why is that? Because it is not said to be disqualification (for the noble attainments). But as for the training rules that are basic to the holy life and proper to the holy life, his virtue is permanent, his virtue is steadfast. With the total ending of [the first] three fetters, he is a stream-winner, steadfast, never again destined for states of woe, headed for self-awakening." [AN 3.87]

Please let me know if there is any further sutta material I should bring up to our discussion. :idea:

Thanks, with warm regards -

Tep
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Re: About not kill any living being

Postby dhamma_spoon » Sun Jul 18, 2010 8:33 pm

Hi, Bodom and other members -

Bodom: "The two sutta quotes you gave are listing the qualities of those ALREADY in attainment of stream entry, the virtues they now posess as stream winners, not what is required for stream entry."

Tep: "I believe that AN 5.179 and AN 3.87 show clearly that purification of virtue is a qualification for Stream-entry, Bodom."

AN 5.179 : ... he is restrained in terms of the five training rules and that he obtains at will, without difficulty, without hardship, four pleasant mental abidings in the here & now, then if he wants he may state about himself: 'Hell is ended; animal wombs are ended; the state of the hungry shades is ended; states of deprivation, destitution, the bad bourns are ended! I am a stream-winner, steadfast, never again destined for states of woe, headed for self-awakening!'

Tep: Note that the fourth mental abiding is endowment with " with virtues that are appealing to the noble ones: untorn, unbroken, unspotted, unsplattered, liberating, praised by the wise, untarnished, leading to concentration."

AN 3.87: ..But as for the training rules that are basic to the holy life and proper to the holy life, his virtue is permanent, his virtue is steadfast. With the total ending of [the first] three fetters, he is a stream-winner, steadfast, never again destined for states of woe, headed for self-awakening."

Let's discuss the above case to reach some conclusion first, before moving on to the controversial case about the drunkard who became sotapanna in the last minute. :reading:


Sincerely,


Tep
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Re: About not kill any living being

Postby bodom » Sun Jul 18, 2010 8:40 pm

We will have to agree to disagree. :smile:

:anjali:
The heart of the path is SO simple. No need for long explanations. Give up clinging to love and hate, just rest with things as they are. That is all I do in my own practice. Do not try to become anything. Do not make yourself into anything. Do not be a meditator. Do not become enlightened. When you sit, let it be. When you walk, let it be. Grasp at nothing. Resist nothing. Of course, there are dozens of meditation techniques to develop samadhi and many kinds of vipassana. But it all comes back to this - just let it all be. Step over here where it is cool, out of the battle. - Ajahn Chah
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Re: About not kill any living being

Postby dhamma_spoon » Sun Jul 18, 2010 8:44 pm

Hi Goedert, -

I am happy now that you have made it perfectly clear about the two kinds of mouse trap that are non-harmful to the caught animal.
I am educated and ready to take charge and gain control of my dwelling! :guns:

Thanks a lot, my friend.

Tep
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A soup spoon does not know the taste of the soup.
A dhamma spoon does not know the taste of the Dhamma!
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Re: About not kill any living being

Postby octathlon » Sun Jul 18, 2010 9:12 pm

Please DO NOT use glue traps!, as they can cause immense suffering! See this article for more information.
http://www.idausa.org/facts/gluefacts.html
Thanks. Sorry for screaming, LOL.
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Re: About not kill any living being

Postby dhamma_spoon » Sun Jul 18, 2010 9:29 pm

octathlon wrote:Please DO NOT use glue traps!, as they can cause immense suffering! See this article for more information.
http://www.idausa.org/facts/gluefacts.html
Thanks. Sorry for screaming, LOL.


Oops! I misunderstood. :rofl:
Okay, no glue traps. Thanks.


Tep
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Re: About not kill any living being

Postby octathlon » Sun Jul 18, 2010 9:38 pm

OK, Phew. :twothumbsup: [heartbeat returns to normal...] :D

Hmm, guess I have more compassion for the rodents than I do for the poor tapeworms, eh?
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Re: About not kill any living being

Postby dhamma_spoon » Mon Jul 19, 2010 2:33 am

octathlon wrote:OK, Phew. :twothumbsup: [heartbeat returns to normal...] :D

Hmm, guess I have more compassion for the rodents than I do for the poor tapeworms, eh?


Maybe it is because rodents are not life threatening to you (unlike the tapeworms)!
When we radiate lovingkindness to all living things, even bacteria and virusses are included! :heart:

[Of course, that is easily said than done.]

Tep
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