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About not kill any living being - Page 5 - Dhamma Wheel

About not kill any living being

A forum for beginners and members of other Buddhist traditions to ask questions about Theravāda (The Way of the Elders). Responses require moderator approval before they are visible.
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dhamma_spoon
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Re: About not kill any living being

Postby dhamma_spoon » Sun Jul 18, 2010 3:08 pm


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octathlon
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Re: About not kill any living being

Postby octathlon » Sun Jul 18, 2010 4:05 pm


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octathlon
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Re: About not kill any living being

Postby octathlon » Sun Jul 18, 2010 4:21 pm


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adosa
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Re: About not kill any living being

Postby adosa » Sun Jul 18, 2010 4:41 pm

"To avoid all evil, to cultivate good, and to cleanse one's mind — this is the teaching of the Buddhas" - Dhammapada 183

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dhamma_spoon
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Re: About not kill any living being

Postby dhamma_spoon » Sun Jul 18, 2010 5:28 pm

Hi, Wind, Octathlon, Adosa --

"The best solution" depends on each individual's goal of Dhamma practice. If we aim at Stream-entry, then absolutely we abstain from killing -- all kinds.

Tep
--------------------------------

"I'm not so sure that is entirely true. Not that I am advocating killing but the Suttas are full of examples of those who had less than stellar sila prior to stream-entry and yet insight still arose. In the greater scheme of things, curing yourself of a tapeworm so that you can continue towards stream-entry might be a preferable course of action than to succumb to death prior to any realization. Tough call. What would you do if a beloved family member had a tapeworm? Being worldly beings still (most of us anyway) sometime you have to put aside the philosophical speculation in favor of the practical.

Do you wash your bed sheets?


adosa
--------------------------------

What you said is a reasonable and practical thinking of worldly beings who are concerned about protection of themselves and their properties, even if they have to kill. But abstaining from killing, the very first precept, is far from philosophical speculation by all means. Purification of virtue is a requirement for Strem-entry. The suttas that are concerned with "perfect virtues" outnumber the exceptions (e.g. Angulimala, the bandit & murderer who turned into arahant), however.

Of course my bed sheets are always washed and kept clean! :pig:

Tep
----

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dhamma_spoon
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Re: About not kill any living being

Postby dhamma_spoon » Sun Jul 18, 2010 5:37 pm


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bodom
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Re: About not kill any living being

Postby bodom » Sun Jul 18, 2010 5:38 pm

To study is to know the texts,
To practice is to know your defilements,
To attain the goal is to know and let go.

- Ajahn Lee Dhammadharo


With mindfulness immersed in the body
well established, restrained
with regard to the six media of contact,
always centered, the monk
can know Unbinding for himself.

- Ud 3.5


https://www.dhammatalks.org/index.html
http://www.ajahnchah.org/

Kenshou
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Re: About not kill any living being

Postby Kenshou » Sun Jul 18, 2010 5:50 pm

Actually, I've gotten the impression that as a matter of fact perfect sila is not a requirement for stream-entry, though of course pretty good sila probably is insofar as fairly good sila is complementary to the practice in general (enough to keep the mind unperturbed), and there are a number of suttas that even mention that a stream-enterer may do an "evil" deed, yet though because they do not conceal it and work towards improvement, they are not disqualified from sotapanna-hood. I'll try and dig up some references for that. At the moment I recall the Ratana Sutta: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .piya.html

"Any evil action he (the stream-enterer) may still do by deed, word or thought, he is incapable of concealing it; since it has been proclaimed that such concealing is impossible for one who has seen the Path (of Nibbana).[8] This precious jewel is the Sangha. By this (asseveration of the) truth may there be happiness."

On one hand we should not trivialize what it means to be a sotapanna, but on the other hand we should also be aware of how things are going to be in reality. I think the suttas in general seem to allow an understandable degree of wiggle room in regards to virtue and other purification, since though a stream-enterer has understood the 4 noble truths and how it is that nibbana is attainable, they haven't uprooted the defilements yet, so some unwholesome kamma is probably going to keep happening. But, as the discourses have said, not any deed quite so bad as to lead to a real crappy rebirth.

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Goedert
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Re: About not kill any living being

Postby Goedert » Sun Jul 18, 2010 7:14 pm


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Goedert
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Re: About not kill any living being

Postby Goedert » Sun Jul 18, 2010 7:26 pm


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dhamma_spoon
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Re: About not kill any living being

Postby dhamma_spoon » Sun Jul 18, 2010 7:35 pm


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bodom
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Re: About not kill any living being

Postby bodom » Sun Jul 18, 2010 8:06 pm

Hi Tep

I am not sure if this sutta is online anywhere. There is also the case of the drunken sotāpanna, Sarakani, in the Samyutta Nikaya 55.24, pg. 1811 in Bodhi's translation. The sutta tells of the Noble sakyan, Sarakani, who was fond of drinking yet was declared a sotāpanna after his death by the Buddha.

Here is Walshe's translation:

Sarakaani Sutta: Sarakaani (Who Took to Drink)
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .wlsh.html

The two sutta quotes you gave are listing the qualities of those ALREADY in attainment of stream entry, the virtues they now posess as stream winners, not what is required for stream entry.

:anjali:
To study is to know the texts,
To practice is to know your defilements,
To attain the goal is to know and let go.

- Ajahn Lee Dhammadharo


With mindfulness immersed in the body
well established, restrained
with regard to the six media of contact,
always centered, the monk
can know Unbinding for himself.

- Ud 3.5


https://www.dhammatalks.org/index.html
http://www.ajahnchah.org/

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dhamma_spoon
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Re: About not kill any living being

Postby dhamma_spoon » Sun Jul 18, 2010 8:17 pm

Hi again, Bodom --

I have one more source I wish to add to the other suttas I quoted from in my earlier post today.

"There is the case where a monk is fully accomplished in virtue, partially accomplished in concentration, and partially accomplished in discernment. With reference to the lesser and minor training rules, he falls into offenses and rehabilitates himself. Why is that? Because it is not said to be disqualification (for the noble attainments). But as for the training rules that are basic to the holy life and proper to the holy life, his virtue is permanent, his virtue is steadfast. With the total ending of [the first] three fetters, he is a stream-winner, steadfast, never again destined for states of woe, headed for self-awakening." [AN 3.87]

Please let me know if there is any further sutta material I should bring up to our discussion. :idea:

Thanks, with warm regards -

Tep
-----

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dhamma_spoon
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Re: About not kill any living being

Postby dhamma_spoon » Sun Jul 18, 2010 8:33 pm

Hi, Bodom and other members -

Bodom: "The two sutta quotes you gave are listing the qualities of those ALREADY in attainment of stream entry, the virtues they now posess as stream winners, not what is required for stream entry."

Tep: "I believe that AN 5.179 and AN 3.87 show clearly that purification of virtue is a qualification for Stream-entry, Bodom."

AN 5.179 : ... he is restrained in terms of the five training rules and that he obtains at will, without difficulty, without hardship, four pleasant mental abidings in the here & now, then if he wants he may state about himself: 'Hell is ended; animal wombs are ended; the state of the hungry shades is ended; states of deprivation, destitution, the bad bourns are ended! I am a stream-winner, steadfast, never again destined for states of woe, headed for self-awakening!'

Tep: Note that the fourth mental abiding is endowment with " with virtues that are appealing to the noble ones: untorn, unbroken, unspotted, unsplattered, liberating, praised by the wise, untarnished, leading to concentration."

AN 3.87: ..But as for the training rules that are basic to the holy life and proper to the holy life, his virtue is permanent, his virtue is steadfast. With the total ending of [the first] three fetters, he is a stream-winner, steadfast, never again destined for states of woe, headed for self-awakening."

Let's discuss the above case to reach some conclusion first, before moving on to the controversial case about the drunkard who became sotapanna in the last minute. :reading:


Sincerely,


Tep
-----

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bodom
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Re: About not kill any living being

Postby bodom » Sun Jul 18, 2010 8:40 pm

We will have to agree to disagree. :smile:

:anjali:
To study is to know the texts,
To practice is to know your defilements,
To attain the goal is to know and let go.

- Ajahn Lee Dhammadharo


With mindfulness immersed in the body
well established, restrained
with regard to the six media of contact,
always centered, the monk
can know Unbinding for himself.

- Ud 3.5


https://www.dhammatalks.org/index.html
http://www.ajahnchah.org/

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dhamma_spoon
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Re: About not kill any living being

Postby dhamma_spoon » Sun Jul 18, 2010 8:44 pm

Hi Goedert, -

I am happy now that you have made it perfectly clear about the two kinds of mouse trap that are non-harmful to the caught animal.
I am educated and ready to take charge and gain control of my dwelling! :guns:

Thanks a lot, my friend.

Tep
-----

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octathlon
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Re: About not kill any living being

Postby octathlon » Sun Jul 18, 2010 9:12 pm

Please DO NOT use glue traps!, as they can cause immense suffering! See this article for more information.
http://www.idausa.org/facts/gluefacts.html
Thanks. Sorry for screaming, LOL.

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dhamma_spoon
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Re: About not kill any living being

Postby dhamma_spoon » Sun Jul 18, 2010 9:29 pm


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octathlon
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Re: About not kill any living being

Postby octathlon » Sun Jul 18, 2010 9:38 pm

OK, Phew. :twothumbsup: [heartbeat returns to normal...] :D

Hmm, guess I have more compassion for the rodents than I do for the poor tapeworms, eh?

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dhamma_spoon
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Re: About not kill any living being

Postby dhamma_spoon » Mon Jul 19, 2010 2:33 am



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