About not kill any living being

A forum for beginners and members of other Buddhist traditions to ask questions about Theravāda (The Way of the Elders). Responses require moderator approval before they are visible in order to double-check alignment to Theravāda orthodoxy.
User avatar
dhamma_spoon
Posts: 145
Joined: Sun Jul 11, 2010 2:12 pm

Re: About not kill any living being

Post by dhamma_spoon »

bodom wrote:Hi Dhamma_Spoon

Do you have a source that states purification of virtue is a requirement for stream entry?

The only qualifications regarding stream entry found in the suttas are as follows:
Association with people of integrity is a factor for stream-entry. Listening to the true Dhamma is a factor for stream-entry. Appropriate attention is a factor for stream-entry. Practice in accordance with the Dhamma is a factor for stream-entry. - — SN 55.5


How do you reconcile your statement that purification of virtue is a requirement for stream entry with the sutta at A IV 213, when a drunken layman, sobered up through the impact of meeting the Buddha for the first time, realized stream-entry during a gradual discourse?

:anjali:
Hi, Bodom -

I appreciate your formal request that I give a source of verification on purification of virtue as a Stream-entry qualification/factor of requirement.
I concur with you about the four factors FOR Stream-entry above. I interpret the fourth factor, i.e. Practice in accordance with the Dhamma, to include purification of virtue. Why? Because Sila-Samadhi-Panna is the heart of the Buddha's Dhamma practice, and perfection in Sila is satisfied at the Stream-entry level. Of course, perfection in Sila of a Sotapanna is less than that in an arahant. So the word 'perfection' is absolute only at the arahant level.

I do not have access to A IV 213, so I cannot reconcile it with my statement on purification of virtue at this point. Could you please provide a Web link to this sutta for me to study first?

Below is a collection of sutta quotes that positively confirm that purification of virtue is a requirement for stream entry.

"There is the case where the disciple of the noble ones is endowed with unwavering confidence in the Awakened One... unwavering confidence in the Dhamma... unwavering confidence in the Sangha... He/she is endowed with virtues that are appealing to the noble ones: untorn, unbroken, unspotted, unsplattered, liberating, praised by the wise, untarnished, leading to concentration." [AN 10.92]
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

"The great earth is far greater, lord. The little bit of dust the Blessed One has picked up with the tip of his fingernail is next to nothing. It's not a hundredth, a thousandth, a one hundred-thousandth — this little bit of dust the Blessed One has picked up with the tip of his fingernail — when compared with the great earth."

"Sariputta, when you know of a householder clothed in white, that he is restrained in terms of the five training rules and that he obtains at will, without difficulty, without hardship, four pleasant mental abidings in the here & now, then if he wants he may state about himself: 'Hell is ended; animal wombs are ended; the state of the hungry shades is ended; states of deprivation, destitution, the bad bourns are ended! I am a stream-winner, steadfast, never again destined for states of woe, headed for self-awakening!' [AN 5.179]
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Tep: The five "training rules" are : the Five Precepts: 1. abstains from taking life, 2. abstains from taking what is not given, 3. abstains from illicit sex, 4. abstains from lying, 5. abstains from distilled & fermented drinks that cause heedlessness

The four pleasant "mental abidings" (anussati ) are : 1. endowed with unwavering faith in the Awakened One, 2. endowed with unwavering faith in the Dhamma, 3. endowed with unwavering faith in the Sangha, 4. endowed with virtues that are appealing to the noble ones: untorn, unbroken, unspotted, unsplattered, liberating, praised by the wise, untarnished, leading to concentration.


Truly,


Tep
----
A soup spoon does not know the taste of the soup.
A dhamma spoon does not know the taste of the Dhamma!
User avatar
bodom
Posts: 7216
Joined: Fri Jan 09, 2009 6:18 pm
Location: San Antonio, Texas

Re: About not kill any living being

Post by bodom »

Hi Tep

I am not sure if this sutta is online anywhere. There is also the case of the drunken sotāpanna, Sarakani, in the Samyutta Nikaya 55.24, pg. 1811 in Bodhi's translation. The sutta tells of the Noble sakyan, Sarakani, who was fond of drinking yet was declared a sotāpanna after his death by the Buddha.

Here is Walshe's translation:

Sarakaani Sutta: Sarakaani (Who Took to Drink)
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .wlsh.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The two sutta quotes you gave are listing the qualities of those ALREADY in attainment of stream entry, the virtues they now posess as stream winners, not what is required for stream entry.

:anjali:
Liberation is the inevitable fruit of the path and is bound to blossom forth when there is steady and persistent practice. The only requirements for reaching the final goal are two: to start and to continue. If these requirements are met there is no doubt the goal will be attained. This is the Dhamma, the undeviating law.

- BB
User avatar
dhamma_spoon
Posts: 145
Joined: Sun Jul 11, 2010 2:12 pm

Re: About not kill any living being

Post by dhamma_spoon »

Hi again, Bodom --

I have one more source I wish to add to the other suttas I quoted from in my earlier post today.

"There is the case where a monk is fully accomplished in virtue, partially accomplished in concentration, and partially accomplished in discernment. With reference to the lesser and minor training rules, he falls into offenses and rehabilitates himself. Why is that? Because it is not said to be disqualification (for the noble attainments). But as for the training rules that are basic to the holy life and proper to the holy life, his virtue is permanent, his virtue is steadfast. With the total ending of [the first] three fetters, he is a stream-winner, steadfast, never again destined for states of woe, headed for self-awakening." [AN 3.87]

Please let me know if there is any further sutta material I should bring up to our discussion. :idea:

Thanks, with warm regards -

Tep
-----
A soup spoon does not know the taste of the soup.
A dhamma spoon does not know the taste of the Dhamma!
User avatar
dhamma_spoon
Posts: 145
Joined: Sun Jul 11, 2010 2:12 pm

Re: About not kill any living being

Post by dhamma_spoon »

Hi, Bodom and other members -

Bodom: "The two sutta quotes you gave are listing the qualities of those ALREADY in attainment of stream entry, the virtues they now posess as stream winners, not what is required for stream entry."

Tep: "I believe that AN 5.179 and AN 3.87 show clearly that purification of virtue is a qualification for Stream-entry, Bodom."

AN 5.179 : ... he is restrained in terms of the five training rules and that he obtains at will, without difficulty, without hardship, four pleasant mental abidings in the here & now, then if he wants he may state about himself: 'Hell is ended; animal wombs are ended; the state of the hungry shades is ended; states of deprivation, destitution, the bad bourns are ended! I am a stream-winner, steadfast, never again destined for states of woe, headed for self-awakening!'

Tep: Note that the fourth mental abiding is endowment with " with virtues that are appealing to the noble ones: untorn, unbroken, unspotted, unsplattered, liberating, praised by the wise, untarnished, leading to concentration."

AN 3.87: ..But as for the training rules that are basic to the holy life and proper to the holy life, his virtue is permanent, his virtue is steadfast. With the total ending of [the first] three fetters, he is a stream-winner, steadfast, never again destined for states of woe, headed for self-awakening."

Let's discuss the above case to reach some conclusion first, before moving on to the controversial case about the drunkard who became sotapanna in the last minute. :reading:


Sincerely,


Tep
-----
A soup spoon does not know the taste of the soup.
A dhamma spoon does not know the taste of the Dhamma!
User avatar
bodom
Posts: 7216
Joined: Fri Jan 09, 2009 6:18 pm
Location: San Antonio, Texas

Re: About not kill any living being

Post by bodom »

We will have to agree to disagree. :smile:

:anjali:
Liberation is the inevitable fruit of the path and is bound to blossom forth when there is steady and persistent practice. The only requirements for reaching the final goal are two: to start and to continue. If these requirements are met there is no doubt the goal will be attained. This is the Dhamma, the undeviating law.

- BB
User avatar
dhamma_spoon
Posts: 145
Joined: Sun Jul 11, 2010 2:12 pm

Re: About not kill any living being

Post by dhamma_spoon »

Hi Goedert, -

I am happy now that you have made it perfectly clear about the two kinds of mouse trap that are non-harmful to the caught animal.
I am educated and ready to take charge and gain control of my dwelling! :guns:

Thanks a lot, my friend.

Tep
-----
A soup spoon does not know the taste of the soup.
A dhamma spoon does not know the taste of the Dhamma!
User avatar
octathlon
Posts: 599
Joined: Thu Jun 17, 2010 5:06 am
Location: USA

Re: About not kill any living being

Post by octathlon »

Please DO NOT use glue traps!, as they can cause immense suffering! See this article for more information.
http://www.idausa.org/facts/gluefacts.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Thanks. Sorry for screaming, LOL.
User avatar
dhamma_spoon
Posts: 145
Joined: Sun Jul 11, 2010 2:12 pm

Re: About not kill any living being

Post by dhamma_spoon »

octathlon wrote:Please DO NOT use glue traps!, as they can cause immense suffering! See this article for more information.
http://www.idausa.org/facts/gluefacts.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Thanks. Sorry for screaming, LOL.
Oops! I misunderstood. :rofl:
Okay, no glue traps. Thanks.


Tep
----
A soup spoon does not know the taste of the soup.
A dhamma spoon does not know the taste of the Dhamma!
User avatar
octathlon
Posts: 599
Joined: Thu Jun 17, 2010 5:06 am
Location: USA

Re: About not kill any living being

Post by octathlon »

OK, Phew. :twothumbsup: [heartbeat returns to normal...] :D

Hmm, guess I have more compassion for the rodents than I do for the poor tapeworms, eh?
User avatar
dhamma_spoon
Posts: 145
Joined: Sun Jul 11, 2010 2:12 pm

Re: About not kill any living being

Post by dhamma_spoon »

octathlon wrote:OK, Phew. :twothumbsup: [heartbeat returns to normal...] :D

Hmm, guess I have more compassion for the rodents than I do for the poor tapeworms, eh?
Maybe it is because rodents are not life threatening to you (unlike the tapeworms)!
When we radiate lovingkindness to all living things, even bacteria and virusses are included! :heart:

[Of course, that is easily said than done.]

Tep
===
A soup spoon does not know the taste of the soup.
A dhamma spoon does not know the taste of the Dhamma!
User avatar
_Daniel_
Posts: 8
Joined: Tue Jul 06, 2010 5:42 pm

Re: About not kill any living being

Post by _Daniel_ »

if you are seriously ill, and you doctor say to you that you have some virus, and you have to use medicines to kill virus. should you take medicines? or you should only die for no get bad karma ? I think that we misunderstand to Buddha. For example a lion shouldnt hunt to get food? because if he get food killing other animal, he gets bad karma...one thing is the compassion and other thing is to go against your own nature. We can try not kill other living beings, but it always should be in a natural way.
User avatar
Rui Sousa
Posts: 366
Joined: Thu Jan 22, 2009 4:01 pm
Location: London, UK

Re: About not kill any living being

Post by Rui Sousa »

bodom wrote:what is required for stream entry.
Hi Bodom,

A list of qualities that lead to Stream-entry, assuring future rebirths either as human or as a deva, from the Cula-punnama Sutta MN 110 (http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html):
And how is a person of integrity a person of integrity in the way he acts? There is the case where a person of integrity is one who refrains from taking life, refrains from stealing, refrains from illicit sex. This is how a person of integrity is a person of integrity in the way he acts.
(...)
This person of integrity — thus endowed with qualities of integrity; a person of integrity in his friendship, in the way he wills, the way he gives advice, the way he speaks, the way he acts, the views he holds, & the way he gives a gift — on the break-up of the body, after death, reappears in the destination of people of integrity. And what is the destination of people of integrity? Greatness among devas or among human beings."
With Metta
User avatar
bodom
Posts: 7216
Joined: Fri Jan 09, 2009 6:18 pm
Location: San Antonio, Texas

Re: About not kill any living being

Post by bodom »

Hi Rui Sousa

Thanks for the link.

:anjali:
Liberation is the inevitable fruit of the path and is bound to blossom forth when there is steady and persistent practice. The only requirements for reaching the final goal are two: to start and to continue. If these requirements are met there is no doubt the goal will be attained. This is the Dhamma, the undeviating law.

- BB
User avatar
Rui Sousa
Posts: 366
Joined: Thu Jan 22, 2009 4:01 pm
Location: London, UK

Re: About not kill any living being

Post by Rui Sousa »

_Daniel_ wrote:if you are seriously ill, and you doctor say to you that you have some virus, and you have to use medicines to kill virus. should you take medicines? or you should only die for no get bad karma ? I think that we misunderstand to Buddha. For example a lion shouldnt hunt to get food? because if he get food killing other animal, he gets bad karma...one thing is the compassion and other thing is to go against your own nature. We can try not kill other living beings, but it always should be in a natural way.
Hi _Daniel_,

Again, the key is intention.

When you get a flu there are millions of virus in your body. The white cells in your body attack the virus and within 3-5 days the virus are all dead. There is nothing we can do about this, that is part of reality. When we eat we ingest many virus, bacteria, protozoa, insects, and so on without seeing them. It sucks, but that is what samsara is. It is part of the burden of being alive.

That has kamma, but not the same as killing with intention. And the kamma for killing because of ignorance is different from the kamma of killing out of greed or ill will. A toddler may kill an animal out of ignorance, repeating the behaviour it has seen in others; one man kills another to steal his gold, or one man kills another because he feels offended by words spoken against him. These three cenarios may have different results, because different mind states are involved in each case.

I don't agree with the 'going against our nature is a bad' thing. If we look at mankind from a zoologic perspective it is in our nature to steal, kill, rape, lie and abuse all kind of drugs. It is in our nature. Being truthful to our nature will make us suffer endlessly, stuck in samsara forever.

The Buddha presented a path out of this, a path that goes against our nature, that leads us to transcend our nature.
With Metta
User avatar
dhamma_spoon
Posts: 145
Joined: Sun Jul 11, 2010 2:12 pm

Re: About not kill any living being

Post by dhamma_spoon »

_Daniel_ wrote:if you are seriously ill, and you doctor say to you that you have some virus, and you have to use medicines to kill virus. should you take medicines? or you should only die for no get bad karma ? I think that we misunderstand to Buddha. For example a lion shouldnt hunt to get food? because if he get food killing other animal, he gets bad karma...one thing is the compassion and other thing is to go against your own nature. We can try not kill other living beings, but it always should be in a natural way.

"Now, when the disciple of the noble ones is consummate in virtue, that is a matter of his conduct. When he guards the doors to his sense faculties... knows moderation in eating... is devoted to wakefulness... is endowed with seven qualities, that is a matter of his conduct. When he obtains at will — without trouble or difficulty — the four jhanas that constitute heightened awareness and a pleasant abiding in the here-&-now, that is a matter of his conduct.

"When he recollects his manifold past lives... in their modes & details, that is a matter of his clear-knowing. When he sees — by means of the divine eye, purified & surpassing the human — beings passing away & re-appearing... When he enters & remains in the fermentation-free awareness-release & discernment-release, having directly known & realized them for himself right in the here & now, that is a matter of his clear-knowing. :meditate:

"This, Mahanama, is called a disciple of the noble ones who is consummate in clear-knowing, consummate in conduct, consummate in clear-knowing & conduct.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Any person who cannot abstain from killing is not "consumate invirtues".
Being consumate in virtues is not possible for most of householders.
Our ways of living cannot be so pure, so it is not possible to attain nibbana in this life time through being "consummate in clear-knowing & conduct".

Tep
-----
A soup spoon does not know the taste of the soup.
A dhamma spoon does not know the taste of the Dhamma!
Post Reply