Arahants and iddhi

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
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Modus.Ponens
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Re: Arahants and iddhi

Post by Modus.Ponens »

To further ilustrate Bubba's point, I sugest you read the wikipedia article on the ganzfeld experiments (which prove the existence of telepathy) together with the skeptical pint of view in the folowing links:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ganzfeld_experiment" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

http://skepdic.com/ganzfeld.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The conclusion in the skeptic article is pathetic. They are clearly biased: a great deal of the conclusion is a text by Susan Blackmore who criticises what was already criticized in the early experiments, but does not adress the more recent results on the ganzfeld experiments

Hyman says:

Acceptable evidence for the presence of anomalous cognition must be based on a positive theory that tells us when psi should and should not be present. Until we have such a theory, the claim that anomalous cognition has been demonstrated is empty.

This is the same as saying that the Michelson-Morley experiment was meaningless at the time because there was no theory of relativity. In fact, this experiment taken seriously is what inspires the theory of relativity. What would be of Einstein if he thought like Hyman? :toilet:
'This is peace, this is exquisite — the resolution of all fabrications; the relinquishment of all acquisitions; the ending of craving; dispassion; cessation; Unbinding.' - Jhana Sutta
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Ben
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Re: Arahants and iddhi

Post by Ben »

Well said, Jon!
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

Compassionate Hands Foundation (Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • Buddhist Global ReliefUNHCR

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Terasi
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Re: Arahants and iddhi

Post by Terasi »

I am not really sure displaying magical abilities will attract more people to Buddhism. It will make Buddhism no more than just "an exotic Asian cult", in straight word: looks cheap. If we're talking about marketing strategy, the teaching is the truth, and it invites people to prove things, that's the unique point to sell. No other religion has something like that. If we are "selling" a genuine article, unnecessary adornment is not needed.

It will also attract people who just want to be magical. Because attaining supernatural power is not as easy as boiling egg, they will get dispirited soon, disappointed, and there will be mouths flapping.
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salmon
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Re: Arahants and iddhi

Post by salmon »

Hi kkrotu,
kkrotu wrote:I've been searching the internet for an answer to a simple question : Why is there no one in the world (present time) that has achieved iddhi (supernormal powers) ?
you have kindda answered your question here
I predict that someone will try to tell me that maybe there are such people but they do not want to show it off to the world because Buddha said he finds these powers to be repulsive and that they may slow down the path to enlightment because they are wordly illusions etc.
...except, I don't think the Buddha finds it repulsive. He just doesn't want simple folks to be duped into a Buddhist way of life. Others have already provided references so I need not. In layman's terms, "proper practitioners" who have attained some form of iddhi have also gained along with it, the wisdom as to why these powers should not be shown off to the world. They know why it will not work in raising faith and prove the path. They know. We don't because we don't have that wisdom.

But these powers could be used to help raise the faith of the people and show them that there really is a path to enlightment that works.
Go to Thailand (or Burma) and you can see for yourself if a show of such powers has raised the faith of the people there and/or prove enlightenment. My hint: Most develop a wrong concept of what Enlightenment really is.
This is the only way someone could prove once and for all that The Noble Eightfolded Path works.
Short of sounding righteous...this is NOT the only way to prove the 8fold path works. One of the best ways to prove it works is to practise the path yourself and compare how your own life, and your own mind has changed from before you start practising, and a couple of months after you start practising.
~ swimming upstream is tough work! ~
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jcsuperstar
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Re: Arahants and iddhi

Post by jcsuperstar »

salmon wrote:
This is the only way someone could prove once and for all that The Noble Eightfolded Path works.
Short of sounding righteous...this is NOT the only way to prove the 8fold path works. One of the best ways to prove it works is to practise the path yourself and compare how your own life, and your own mind has changed from before you start practising, and a couple of months after you start practising.
exactly the 8fp is a not a path to magical powers, but to the end of suffering
สัพเพ สัตตา สุขีตา โหนตุ

the mountain may be heavy in and of itself, but if you're not trying to carry it it's not heavy to you- Ajaan Suwat
PeterB
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Re: Arahants and iddhi

Post by PeterB »

If I thought that the end goal of Buddhadhamma was to produce supernormal powers I would renounce it immediately and take up fell walking.
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tiltbillings
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Re: Arahants and iddhi

Post by tiltbillings »

PeterB wrote:. . . take up fell walking.
In the Lake District, all the while singing the praises of St Beatrix Potter.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
PeterB
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Re: Arahants and iddhi

Post by PeterB »

Yup. the Tiggywinkle refrain..
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BubbaBuddhist
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Re: Arahants and iddhi

Post by BubbaBuddhist »

Bwhahahhaa! If there is a Tao of Pooh, why not a Dhamma of Peter Rabbit?

Anyway, you thrill-seekers, if you want to see miracles, come by my place on Wednesdays when me and my boys meet, and we'll show you card tricks until your eyes melt. But please don't follow Arhants around bothering them to "show you something." They have more important matters on their plate. LOL

J
Author of Redneck Buddhism: or Will You Reincarnate as Your Own Cousin?
PeterB
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Re: Arahants and iddhi

Post by PeterB »

Or in their alms bowl John..
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Ben
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Re: Arahants and iddhi

Post by Ben »

Bubbabuddhist wrote:Bwhahahhaa! If there is a Tao of Pooh, why not a Dhamma of Peter Rabbit?

Anyway, you thrill-seekers, if you want to see miracles, come by my place on Wednesdays when me and my boys meet, and we'll show you card tricks until your eyes melt. But please don't follow Arhants around bothering them to "show you something." They have more important matters on their plate. LOL

J
Hey Jon, why don't you and your boys come for a holiday in Australia?
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

Compassionate Hands Foundation (Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • Buddhist Global ReliefUNHCR

e: [email protected]..
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BubbaBuddhist
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Re: Arahants and iddhi

Post by BubbaBuddhist »

Would love to Ben. I have quite a few friends there in the "craft," and we could get together for a pretty fun time. I think my passport would need updating and I would have to get shots against the Tasmanian jungle rot and other blights, wouldn't I? I would love to see Australia and New Zealand and that whole part of the world.
Author of Redneck Buddhism: or Will You Reincarnate as Your Own Cousin?
FlexIT
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Re: Arahants and iddhi

Post by FlexIT »

Few can meet the truth, because of karma, no matter how much one can search if his own karma does not allows to walk.

Very few can see the truth, because of khilesa, no matter what or how things are shown to others, if blind they cannot see.

Rare can understand the truth of anicca & dukkha, no matter how much one strives to walk, if there are no legs one cannot walk.

Very rare can follow the truth of anatta, no matter what or how much one can walk, if there is no light on the path, then there is no destination.
User13866
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Re: Arahants and iddhi

Post by User13866 »

“There are, brahmin, ten qualities inspiring confidence that have been declared by the Blessed One who knows and sees, accomplished and fully enlightened. When these qualities are found in anyone among us, we honour, respect, revere, and venerate him, and live in dependence on him honouring and respecting him. What are the ten?

(1) “Here, brahmin, a bhikkhu is virtuous, he dwells restrained with the restraint of the Pātimokkha, he is perfect in conduct and resort, and seeing fear in the slightest faults, he trains himself by undertaking the training precepts.

(2) “He has learned much, remembers what he has learned, and consolidates what he has learned. Such teachings as are good in the beginning, good in the middle, and good in the end, with the right meaning and phrasing, and which affirm a holy life that is utterly perfect and pure—such teachings as these he has learned much of, remembered, mastered verbally, investigated with the mind, and penetrated well by view.

(3) “He is content with his robes, almsfood, resting place, and medicinal requisites.

(4) “He obtains at will, without trouble or difficulty, the four jhānas that constitute the higher mind and provide a pleasant abiding here and now.

(5) “He wields the various kinds of supernormal power: having been one, he becomes many; having been many, he becomes one; he appears and vanishes; he goes unhindered through a wall, through an enclosure, through a mountain as though through space; he dives in and out of the earth as though it were water; he walks on water without sinking as though it were earth; seated cross-legged, he travels in space like a bird; with his hand he touches and strokes the moon and sun so powerful and mighty; he wields bodily mastery even as far as the Brahma-world.

(6) “With the divine ear element, which is purified and surpasses the human, he hears both kinds of sounds, the divine and the human, those that are far as well as near.

(7) “He understands the minds of other beings, of other persons, having encompassed them with his own mind. He understands a mind affected by lust as affected by lust and a mind unaffected by lust as unaffected by lust; he understands a mind affected by hate as affected by hate and a mind unaffected by hate as unaffected by hate; he understands a mind affected by delusion as affected by delusion and a mind unaffected by delusion as unaffected by delusion; he understands a contracted mind as contracted and a distracted mind as distracted; he understands an exalted mind as exalted and an unexalted mind as unexalted; he understands a surpassed mind as surpassed and an unsurpassed mind as unsurpassed; he understands a concentrated mind as concentrated and an unconcentrated mind as unconcentrated; he understands a liberated mind as liberated and an unliberated mind as unliberated.

(8) “He recollects his manifold past lives, that is, one birth, two births…as Sutta 51, §24…Thus with their aspects and particulars he recollects his manifold past lives.

(9) “With the divine eye, which is purified and surpasses the human, he sees beings passing away and reappearing, inferior and superior, fair and ugly, fortunate and unfortunate, and he understands how beings pass on according to their actions.

(10) “By realising for himself with direct knowledge, he here and now enters upon and abides in the deliverance of mind and deliverance by wisdom that are taintless with the destruction of the taints.

“These, brahmin, are the ten qualities inspiring confidence that have been declared by the Blessed One who knows and sees, accomplished and fully enlightened. 
Mn108
User13866
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Re: Arahants and iddhi

Post by User13866 »

I believe we aren't seeing much of it because meditators nowadays are comparatively weak and few possess any of the qualities let alone the supermundane. That being said there might be people with powers, it's not for me to know.
Last edited by User13866 on Fri Jun 24, 2022 9:05 am, edited 1 time in total.
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