When Buddhists get a tick....

General discussion of issues related to Theravada Training of Sila, the Five Precepts (Pañcasikkhāpada), and Eightfold Ethical Conduct (Aṭṭhasīla).
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Moth
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Re: When Buddhists get a tick....

Postby Moth » Fri Jul 23, 2010 4:33 pm

I think we're over-analyzing this. You're not 100% guaranteed to get a disease, and if you do its not as if they're not treatable. Either way, if you kill the tick you kill the tick, do not look for justification. You value your own life over its life, either that or you value human life in general over that of a tick. I'm not implying any judgment value here, just trying to state things as they are. If you leave the tick then you accept the risk towards yourself for the sake of its life.

Also, I think the argument that letting it live would harm another being is invalid. There are infinitely many ticks, you sparing one's life isn't going to make a difference. Just because a tick exists near you doesn't mean you are duty bound to kill it, for the sake of other beings, for if that were the case we'd need to be preemptively killing many, many, ticks as they are all over the place.
Last edited by Moth on Fri Jul 23, 2010 6:43 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: When Buddhists get a tick....

Postby Goedert » Fri Jul 23, 2010 4:42 pm

According to Theravada commentaries, there are five requisite factors that must all be fulfilled for an act to be both an act of killing and to be karmically negative. These are: (1) the presence of a living being, human or animal; (2) the knowledge that the being is a living being; (3) the intent to kill; (4) the act of killing by some means; and (5) the resulting death.

Hammalawa Saddhatissa, Buddhist Ethics. Wisdom Publications, 1997, pages 60, 159.

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Re: When Buddhists get a tick....

Postby PeterB » Fri Jul 23, 2010 4:51 pm

I will accept that Goedert. And I will consciously and deliberately kill ticks, mosquitoes and anything else that threatens the life of my family and community. And accept the consequences. You make your decision and I will make mine.

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Re: When Buddhists get a tick....

Postby PeterB » Fri Jul 23, 2010 4:54 pm

Moth wrote:I think we're over-analyzing this. You're not 100% guaranteed to get a disease, and if you do its not as if they're not treatable. Either way, if you kill the tick you kill the tick, do not look for justification. You value your own life over its life, either that or you value human life in general over that of a tick. I'm not imply any judgment value here, just trying to state things as they are. If you leave the tick then you accept the risk towards yourself for the sake of its life. I am not speaking for myself, but I believe one who has truly let go of all things would not kill the being to save his/her own skin. Also I think the argument of letting it live would harm another being is invalid. There are infinitely many ticks, you sparing one's life isn't going to make a difference. Just because a tick exists near you doesn't mean you are duty bound to kill it, for the sake of other beings, for if that were the case we'd need to be preemptively killing many, many, ticks as they are all over the place.

I do absolutely value my life and my families life and your life and any human life over the life of a tick.
I think anyone that doesnt has serious, SERIOUS issues.
This thread has become so surreal and so divorced from reality that I will take my leave of it and wish you all well.
:anjali:

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Re: When Buddhists get a tick....

Postby Goedert » Fri Jul 23, 2010 5:55 pm

PeterB wrote:I will accept that Goedert. And I will consciously and deliberately kill ticks, mosquitoes and anything else that threatens the life of my family and community. And accept the consequences. You make your decision and I will make mine.


Friend, you speak truth.

As said you said in an earlier post. Lay persons are encouraged, but not obgliged, to commit themselves in observance of The Five Pãncsila.

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Re: When Buddhists get a tick....

Postby tiltbillings » Fri Jul 23, 2010 5:58 pm

Virgo wrote:Here is a question:

The neighbors cat is really a stray, however the neighbor feeds it usually. It comes by my home sometimes and we give it milk. Now, that cat goes out and kills mice and birds. Is feeding it milk enabling it to go kill other sentient beings and cause them misery? (birds and mice have feelings too and don't want to die. They only want to be happy. If that wasn't the case, they wouldn't run from danger. They also have children that they must feed.)

Maybe I should not feed the cat milk according to the faulty logic being put forth here.
Milk is not a good food for a cat. House cats should not be let outside, given that they kill far more than they eat and are very destructive of birds in particular. What should you do? Take some responsibility here, talk to your neighbor and if that does not work, call the local animal control, given the cat is being neglected and the owner is likely in violation of the local law.

Maybe I should take that logic further and even though I don't feed it myself, I should convince my neighbor not to feed it too.
The cat does not need to be outside. That is your neighbors responsibility and it is why there are laws in most communities concerning that.
Maybe I should take this wretched logic one step further and just club the f*ing the thing, the g*damn killer cat. I do have a baseball bat in the house that would crack its little head and crush her skull, you know...
Nice try, Kevin. If the cat has an owner, it is the owner's responsibility to control it. You obviously have a face, take some responsibility, show some real compassion in action and open it: express your concern about about the cat's killing of song birds and other animals. The death of song birds by cats in the USA is in the hundreds of millions; an estimated 39 million are killed annually in Wisconsin.

Also, a cat like that is likely to be full of parasites, which means its life is miserable and will be short. Feeding it an inappropriate food is not compassion, ignoring the results of having a cat run loose is not compassion for the cat or its prey and there is no compassion expressed in you little story towards your neighbor. So, Kevin, what are you going to do? I suppose, in the very least, you could cut bits and pieces of flesh from your body to feed it, but barring that try to show real compassion for the situation.

Do you see where this faulty logic leads?
Yes, I see where your faulty logic goes and I see nothing here of you taking any compassionate responsibility for you actions or the situation. When you do, let us know.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

dheamhan a fhios agam

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson

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Re: When Buddhists get a tick....

Postby tiltbillings » Fri Jul 23, 2010 6:01 pm

Virgo wrote:
PeterB wrote:No. Thats a strawcat.
Its called The Slippery Slope Fallacy.

No it isn't. Thinking that letting a tick live is wrong simply because it might infect others is the slippery slope. The tick may live or may not, you do not know and cannot control it. Ticks have a short lifespan. There is just as much chance it will die before infecting another. Besides, you don't even know if the tick has Lyme or not! How can you condemn it without even knowing?
Why take the chance?
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

dheamhan a fhios agam

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson

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Re: When Buddhists get a tick....

Postby acinteyyo » Fri Jul 23, 2010 6:10 pm

PeterB wrote:I do absolutely value my life and my families life and your life and any human life over the life of a tick.

Views like this will lead to suffering.
PeterB wrote:I think anyone that doesnt has serious, SERIOUS issues.

Some may have serious issues, others may have wisdom.
tiltbillings wrote:
Virgo wrote:
PeterB wrote:No. Thats a strawcat.
Its called The Slippery Slope Fallacy.

No it isn't. Thinking that letting a tick live is wrong simply because it might infect others is the slippery slope. The tick may live or may not, you do not know and cannot control it. Ticks have a short lifespan. There is just as much chance it will die before infecting another. Besides, you don't even know if the tick has Lyme or not! How can you condemn it without even knowing?
Why take the chance?

why engage in wild speculations?

best wishes, acinteyyo
Pubbe cāhaṃ bhikkhave, etarahi ca dukkhañceva paññāpemi, dukkhassa ca nirodhaṃ. (M.22)
Api cāhaṃ, āvuso, imasmiṃyeva byāmamatte kaḷevare, sasaññimhi samanake lokañca paññāpemi lokasamudayañca lokanirodhañca lokanirodhagāminiñca paṭipadan. (AN4.45)

:anjali:

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Re: When Buddhists get a tick....

Postby Annapurna » Fri Jul 23, 2010 6:30 pm

Virgo wrote:Here is a question:

The neighbors cat is really a stray, however the neighbor feeds it usually. It comes by my home sometimes and we give it milk. Now, that cat goes out and kills mice and birds. Is feeding it milk enabling it to go kill other sentient beings and cause them misery? (birds and mice have feelings too and don't want to die. They only want to be happy. If that wasn't the case, they wouldn't run from danger. They also have children that they must feed.)

Maybe I should not feed the cat milk according to the faulty logic being put forth here.

Maybe I should take that logic further and even though I don't feed it myself, I should convince my neighbor not to feed it too. By condoning my neighbors actions when I see her and she brings up the cat and tell me that she fed it, gave it milk, aren't I enabling the cat to kill too. How far should this be taken? Is nodding and praising her activity, condoning it, helping to enable the cat to kill too? According to the line of logic being put forth here, I should not condone my neighbors feeding this cat. When she brings it up I should avert my gaze, walk away, or just tell her she should not do it. Otherwise I am enabling this cat.

Maybe I should take this wretched logic one step further and just club the f*ing the thing, the g*damn killer cat. I do have a baseball bat in the house that would crack its little head and crush her skull, you know...

Do you see where this faulty logic leads?
ic led you?


Kevin


Don't point at the faulty logic of others, Kevin, yours is too.

You argue that feeding a cat will "enable it to kill".

How so? You didn't know my cat Jeannie, who gave up hunting mice because she got admonished not to, but insisted on bringing living birds, to trade them in for milk....

A hungry cat is always keen on hunting, a well-fed cat is not (so much).

Do you see where your faulty logic led you-?
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Re: When Buddhists get a tick....

Postby tiltbillings » Fri Jul 23, 2010 6:39 pm

acinteyyo wrote:.
tiltbillings wrote:
Virgo wrote: Besides, you don't even know if the tick has Lyme or not! How can you condemn it without even knowing?
Why take the chance?

why engage in wild speculations?
You allow a deer tick to feed, which is necessary for its egg to mature and hatch and you allow the deer tick to return to is natural habitat where at least one human came into contact with it, it is not much of a stretcgh at all to assume that other humans could come into contact with it or its off-spring. Why take the chance? Is that the compassionate thing to do?
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

dheamhan a fhios agam

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson

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Re: When Buddhists get a tick....

Postby tiltbillings » Fri Jul 23, 2010 6:43 pm

acinteyyo wrote:
PeterB wrote:I do absolutely value my life and my families life and your life and any human life over the life of a tick.

Views like this will lead to suffering.
Not that you have shown, but the suffering caused by Lyme's vectored by deer ticks is well known.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

dheamhan a fhios agam

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson

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Re: When Buddhists get a tick....

Postby Annapurna » Fri Jul 23, 2010 6:46 pm

acinteyyo wrote:
PeterB wrote:I do absolutely value my life and my families life and your life and any human life over the life of a tick.

Views like this will lead to suffering.




At e sangha, Venerable Dhammanande and other Vens explained, that there are higher evolved beings and less evolved beings.

Somebody told us that he saved a kitten from fireants.

A few of the ants didn't want to let go of it and so died. The monks explained, that he did right to save the kitten, even if a few ants died, as he did not intend to kill them, only to remove them.
They said protecting the higher evolved being against less evolved beings is correct, becuase it has more sense faculties than insects, 5 vs 4, so it will suffer more.

Therefore, PeterB's view is correct.

Mosqzitos can be caught alive, at least in Northern Europe.

Snakes too.

Ticks can surely be removed alive, however, I try to, but they are dead afterwards.

It's not my intention, but I kill them, somehow, and will certainly remove them each time I get one.

I read flushing it down the toilet will not kill it.

What will it do in the sewer system?

Prolly find a rat. In case it is still alive.

It may sound cruel, but some insects are very resilient, and ticks apparently too.
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Re: When Buddhists get a tick....

Postby tiltbillings » Fri Jul 23, 2010 7:05 pm

Here is a cute little eye worm taken live from some unfortunate person's eye. This worm will die outside the host. So, which one of you want to become the new host for our little friend?

http://www.lifesyrup.com/watch_video.ph ... 7cc36170e1
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

dheamhan a fhios agam

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson

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Re: When Buddhists get a tick....

Postby Annapurna » Fri Jul 23, 2010 7:12 pm

Holy shit
http://www.schmuckzauberei.blogspot.com/

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Re: When Buddhists get a tick....

Postby Virgo » Fri Jul 23, 2010 7:37 pm

I'm leaving this conversation because some peoples views are twisted. The Buddha taught not to kill. Eye worms may affect peoples eyes; however, killing is the cause of negative kamma. Because you kill, in future lifetimes you will be crushed, killed, injured, hunted, and so on. So your "compassionate fight" only leads to some negative kamma erupting in the future, where you are afflicted again.

Kevin

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Re: When Buddhists get a tick....

Postby tiltbillings » Fri Jul 23, 2010 7:45 pm

Virgo wrote:I'm leaving this conversation because some peoples views are twisted. The Buddha taught not to kill. Eye worms may affect peoples eyes; however, killing is the cause of negative kamma. Because you kill, in future lifetimes you will be crushed, killed, injured, hunted, and so on. So your "compassionate fight" only leads to some negative kamma erupting in the future, where you are afflicted again.

Kevin
So, we should not take out the eye-worm and the person goes blind and is in pain from it? Are you willing to be the host for the worm?

Simple questions, Kevin, but no answers from you, just cut and run, is it?
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

dheamhan a fhios agam

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson

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Re: When Buddhists get a tick....

Postby Reductor » Fri Jul 23, 2010 8:01 pm

You know what I would swat, if I had the chance? This thread.

May it die, and soon.
Michael

The thoughts I've expressed in the above post are carefully considered and offered in good faith.

And friendliness towards the world is happiness for him who is forbearing with living beings. -- Ud. 2:1
To his own ruin the fool gains knowledge, for it cleaves his head and destroys his innate goodness. -- Dhp 72


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Re: When Buddhists get a tick....

Postby Virgo » Fri Jul 23, 2010 8:04 pm

tiltbillings wrote:
Virgo wrote:I'm leaving this conversation because some peoples views are twisted. The Buddha taught not to kill. Eye worms may affect peoples eyes; however, killing is the cause of negative kamma. Because you kill, in future lifetimes you will be crushed, killed, injured, hunted, and so on. So your "compassionate fight" only leads to some negative kamma erupting in the future, where you are afflicted again.

Kevin
So, we should not take out the eye-worm and the person goes blind and is in pain from it? Are you willing to be the host for the worm?

Simple questions, Kevin, but no answers from you, just cut and run, is it?


If I were a putthujana, I would probably hold out as long as I could but eventually give in and have it removed. I would by relieved when it was out, but the over situation would sadden me. At this point, just as with the tick, that is not possible. I don't hold others to my level of sila because they are likely putthujanas. I do think people should do their best not to kill though. You have to remind yourself that the body is not yours, the blood is not yours, not of it is.

Be well,

Kevin

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Re: When Buddhists get a tick....

Postby Hoo » Fri Jul 23, 2010 8:05 pm

I think it was Ajhan Chah I was reading when the point was made that one should be aware when passion rises. The arising of passion is rarely skilful and can be considered a warning that attachment is active or that ego is threatened.

My apologies for asking that this thread be left open. I did learn some more tick-related and precept-related things to consider. For that I thank everyone. But I regret the position-taking, position-defending and other words that seem to have been designed to demean others. I almost joined in to straighten some folks out - which would have helped a lot, right? :toilet:

To those always alert to credentials (and rightly so, IMHO), here they are. Recent Buddhist, long time faded-glory in several fields, easily tempted into an argument, so far away from stream-entry that I'll die of thirst before I see the stream ;)

Hoo

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Re: When Buddhists get a tick....

Postby Goedert » Fri Jul 23, 2010 8:16 pm

tiltbillings wrote:Here is a cute little eye worm taken live from some unfortunate person's eye. This worm will die outside the host. So, which one of you want to become the new host for our little friend?

http://www.lifesyrup.com/watch_video.ph ... 7cc36170e1


Tilt, analysing it with the first precept role, it is possible to remove it, but we have to be with shame.

(1) the presence of a living being, human or animal;
A: Yes
(2) the knowledge that the being is a living being;
A: Yes
(3) the intent to kill;
A: No (If one person want to doctor to remove it because his health is in dangerous, there is no problem.)
Yes (If one person go to doctor with the intent to have vengance, because the person feels that her body is to holy, that is a problem. UnWholesome things are occurring in the mind of this person.)
(4) the act of killing by some means;
A: Yes
(5) the resulting death
A: Yes

AHIRIKA (LACK OF MORAL SHAME)

Lack of moral shame is called ahirika. All immoral unwholesome deeds are like faeces. Shameless (ahirika) is like a village swine. Faeces is very disgusting; being soiled with it, is embarrassing in the presence of people. But the swine faeces is fine food. It is not disgusting and so there in no need to be embarrassed when soiled with it. Swines surely enjoy rolling about in faeces and partaking of it.

In the same way, wrong deeds (duccarita) such as taking life, etc. are detestable deeds of the virtuous. Even when such deeds are committed unwittingly, it will be regarded shamefully by the virtuous. But ahirika is not having detestation to do wrong deeds and not feeling ashamed of the wrong act. As a matter of fact, the shameless among themselves regard wrong deeds as something to take pride in.
When moha arises, it leads to ahirika; so even the wise do wrong shamelessly when deluded. Therefore, those who are acclaimed to be wise should judge with their own experienced the truth of what is said.

ABHIDHAMMA IN DAILY LIFE by Janakabhivamsa, Ashin


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