Buddhism and Psychedelics

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
Anicca
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Re: Buddhism and Psychedelics

Post by Anicca »

Moth wrote:In your opinion, is moderate use of mind-altering plants such as Ayahuasca and Psilocybin Mushrooms a violation of the fifth precept and more importantly a detriment to Buddhist practice?
Yes and yes.

Uppers, downers and booze were never a temptation in the good ol' daze - the psychedelics were in another category.

Remember what the dormouse said - feed your head...

Personally, they really seemed to instill a great need for personal inner change. It seemed they showed that the "mundane, material" style of living was a dead end - that moral, ethical and virtuous values were worth more than fame and gold and - that more drugs were not the correct way to make the change! They did their bit to encourage change, but it takes a "straight" mind to make those changes real and permanent. They did not show the "whole" path - but they were a start.

Others used the same drugs and became neo-nazis and alchoholics. Kamma?

Metta
Laurens
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Re: Buddhism and Psychedelics

Post by Laurens »

I don't think its encouraged in Buddhism. But don't let that stop you, you need to think for yourself...

Just because its not encouraged doesn't mean that's a strict doctrine that you have to follow. Carry on taking psychedelics and practising Buddhism, find out for yourself how useful or otherwise they are. Don't stop just cause someone else told you to, if they help you then they help you. Simple as.
"If only it were all so simple! If only there were evil people somewhere insidiously committing evil deeds, and it were necessary only to separate them from the rest of us and destroy them. But the line dividing good and evil cuts through the heart of every human being. And who is willing to destroy a piece of his own heart?"

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Moth
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Re: Buddhism and Psychedelics

Post by Moth »

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Last edited by Moth on Thu Sep 04, 2014 6:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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octathlon
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Re: Buddhism and Psychedelics

Post by octathlon »

Moth wrote:
Laurens wrote:I don't think its encouraged in Buddhism. But don't let that stop you, you need to think for yourself...

Just because its not encouraged doesn't mean that's a strict doctrine that you have to follow. Carry on taking psychedelics and practising Buddhism, find out for yourself how useful or otherwise they are. Don't stop just cause someone else told you to, if they help you then they help you. Simple as.
Thank you. I find this advice to be very wise.
Yay, you finally got the answer you were waiting for, congrats! :D
Laurens
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Re: Buddhism and Psychedelics

Post by Laurens »

Moth wrote:
Laurens wrote:I don't think its encouraged in Buddhism. But don't let that stop you, you need to think for yourself...

Just because its not encouraged doesn't mean that's a strict doctrine that you have to follow. Carry on taking psychedelics and practising Buddhism, find out for yourself how useful or otherwise they are. Don't stop just cause someone else told you to, if they help you then they help you. Simple as.
Thank you. I find this advice to be very wise.
I should put a disclaimer that I am no longer practising Buddhism. I wasn't specifically condoning psychedelics either, I think you should be very careful if you wish to use them. And I am confident that eventually the meditation and the use of psychedelics will probably strike a discord with one another.

I would urge you to arrive at that yourself though, that's all. Giving up psychedelics because someone else says you should probably isn't the best way of doing things. If you do it that way you will just be burying the desire to take psychedelics rather than genuinely giving up attachment to them, so the desire will probably keep cropping up over and over again.

A similar thing happened to me with marijuana, I stopped because of the 5th precept. But that wasn't a good enough reason to break my old patterns, so they would just emerge time and time again. It has to be a decision arrived at through insight, not through burying old patterns and attachments.

Laurens
"If only it were all so simple! If only there were evil people somewhere insidiously committing evil deeds, and it were necessary only to separate them from the rest of us and destroy them. But the line dividing good and evil cuts through the heart of every human being. And who is willing to destroy a piece of his own heart?"

Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn
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bodom
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Re: Buddhism and Psychedelics

Post by bodom »

Laurens wrote: I would urge you to arrive at that yourself though, that's all. Giving up psychedelics because someone else says you should probably isn't the best way of doing things.
There is a saying. "The smart man learns from his own mistakes. The wise man learns from the mistakes of others".

LSD, shrooms, ecstacy, peyote, etc. etc. Been there done them all and more. They never got me anywhere. Especially in meditation. The only place they ever got me was in trouble. They won't get you anywhere but in trouble either Moth. Be a wise man and learn from my mistake. Its not worth it.

:anjali:
Liberation is the inevitable fruit of the path and is bound to blossom forth when there is steady and persistent practice. The only requirements for reaching the final goal are two: to start and to continue. If these requirements are met there is no doubt the goal will be attained. This is the Dhamma, the undeviating law.

- BB
Laurens
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Re: Buddhism and Psychedelics

Post by Laurens »

I agree that the testimony of others is useful in learning, I guess it all depends how much you feel the need to take psychedelics. And perhaps rather than looking at the supposed spiritual benefits of the drugs, look at the counter arguments also, what do people say about the risks etc.

I stand by my point that it should be your own decision though, it should be arrived at when you no longer feel the desire to take them, cause if you suppress it, the chances are it will cause issues.
"If only it were all so simple! If only there were evil people somewhere insidiously committing evil deeds, and it were necessary only to separate them from the rest of us and destroy them. But the line dividing good and evil cuts through the heart of every human being. And who is willing to destroy a piece of his own heart?"

Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn
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bodom
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Re: Buddhism and Psychedelics

Post by bodom »

Laurens wrote:I stand by my point that it should be your own decision though, it should be arrived at when you no longer feel the desire to take them, cause if you suppress it, the chances are it will cause issues.
I wholeheartedly agree with you. Lots of alcoholics and addicts when first trying to get sober will do it to save their marriage, job, kids,personal relationships etc. anything other than for themselves. It doesn't work. Its only when they get sober for themselves that it will work and they will stay sober.

:anjali:
Liberation is the inevitable fruit of the path and is bound to blossom forth when there is steady and persistent practice. The only requirements for reaching the final goal are two: to start and to continue. If these requirements are met there is no doubt the goal will be attained. This is the Dhamma, the undeviating law.

- BB
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EricJ
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Re: Buddhism and Psychedelics

Post by EricJ »

Let's keep in mind that his question was specifically related the the use of psychedelics in relation to the Buddhist path. If this is the question we are asking ourselves, the answer is clear. The Buddha taught us a path of renunciation, of putting aside conditioned experiences. The basic renunciations which Buddhists strive to undertake are contained within the five precepts. Drug use profoundly strengthens the defilements of greed and delusion, more so than many of the things we encounter in our lives.

That said, the path is holistic. It takes a lot of effort and time to relinquish drugs for Buddhism. I know this from personal experience. I spent years reading about and wanting to convert to Buddhism, because I wasn't able to give up cannabis. Whenever I did give up drugs, it was due to a random surge of desire to practice Dhamma. However, I never deluded myself in to thinking that Dhamma practice and drug use are compatible in any way at all, or that the effects of psychedelics are somehow comparable to the effects of meditation.

Regards,
Eric
I do not want my house to be walled in on sides and my windows to be stuffed. I want the cultures of all the lands to be blown about my house as freely as possible. But I refuse to be blown off my feet by any.- Gandhi

With persistence aroused for the highest goal's attainment, with mind unsmeared, not lazy in action, firm in effort, with steadfastness & strength arisen, wander alone like a rhinoceros.

Not neglecting seclusion, absorption, constantly living the Dhamma in line with the Dhamma, comprehending the danger in states of becoming, wander alone like a rhinoceros.
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Moth
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Re: Buddhism and Psychedelics

Post by Moth »

Having done both cannabis and mushrooms today, with mindful intent, I realized that there was little to gain for either. Both had the undercurrent of unsatisfactoriness, suffering, impermanence, etc. Neither lead to any deeper wisdom other than an appreciation for sobriety and the sober state. Both lead me to a sudden and intense awareness of the suffering within all things, yet little awareness of the way to its cessation. This is perhaps a reflection of my own understanding of Dharma, or lack there of.
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lojong1
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Re: Buddhism and Psychedelics

Post by lojong1 »

Moth wrote:I'm interested to hear what you folks think.
I should have had plain peach and melon without that artificial tripleberry sponge crap.

~ The Psychedelic Experience ~
A manual based on the Tibetan Book of the Dead
By Timothy Leary, Ph.D., Ralph Metzner, Ph.D., & Richard Alpert, Ph.D.

http://www.leary.ru/download/leary/Timo ... 20Dead.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Drug tests, Tibetan Dhamma, government interference...otherwise I dunno yet what's in it.
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Potato
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Re: Buddhism and Psychedelics

Post by Potato »

There are some religions in which psychedelic use is an accepted practice. Buddhism is not one of them. If you want to experiment with such things, that's up to you, but don't try to legitimize such experimentation as arcane Buddhist practice. To do so is to do both yourself and Buddhism a disservice.

Timothy Leary may have found parts of the Dharma appealing, but I don't think he studied it in great depth.
lojong1
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Re: Buddhism and Psychedelics

Post by lojong1 »

Potato wrote:...don't try to legitimize such experimentation as arcane Buddhist practice.
Alrighty then, I didn't and I won't.
Timothy Leary may have found parts of the Dharma appealing, but I don't think he studied it in great depth.
Agreed. Same with Aleister Crowley, who had some respect for the Buddha-Dhamma but clung to his own deepest unwholesomeness and died [an angry drug addict?].

For one who has not taken any precepts and is not a member of the sangha, I say go hard and good luck with that. At best, if it doesn't completely destroy you, you'll convince yourself that the mind is capable of some wacky sht, then stop using.
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Moth
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Re: Buddhism and Psychedelics

Post by Moth »

lojong1 wrote:Agreed. Same with Aleister Crowley, who had some respect for the Buddha-Dhamma but clung to his own deepest unwholesomeness and died [an angry drug addict?].
Aleister Crowley isolated the technique of Samadhi, mastered it (supposedly), and then assumped he had mastered Buddhism. It's funny how he completely disregarded mindfulness and compassion.
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lojong1
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Re: Buddhism and Psychedelics

Post by lojong1 »

Moth wrote:Aleister Crowley
Then again, maybe he cultivated his reputation as a way to ensure his teachings, and buddhism, would remain in the world longer. With as strong a base in samatha as he advocated, would it even be possible to go so far astray?
Now there is a whole new-age scene of depressed, 'cutter', black-magic dabbling, drug-addicted, outcast satanists who would likely be turned off of buddhism by an orthodox first impression. They check out 'Magick in Theory and Practice' and find that, in order to progress in that discipline, they first need the same foundation as a buddhist!
Crowley's greatest teacher and lifelong friend was the first--or among the first--westerners to ordain in Burma, and helped spread real Dhamma in England.
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