Lobha, Dosa mutually exclusive: Sutta reference?

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Lobha, Dosa mutually exclusive: Sutta reference?

Postby mud » Tue Jul 20, 2010 3:06 am

Does anyone know of a sutta that mentions that Lobha and Dosa cannot arise at exact same moment?

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Re: Lobha, Dosa mutually exclusive: Sutta reference?

Postby dhamma_spoon » Sat Jul 24, 2010 1:40 am

mud wrote:Does anyone know of a sutta that mentions that Lobha and Dosa cannot arise at exact same moment?

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Not exactly, Mud, but there are many suttas in which the Buddha separately explained about lobha, then dosa, then moha as the three "roots" of all evils.
They cannot arise at the same time since dosa (aversion) is repulsive and lobha is attractive, thus they are opposite and do not co-exist. Furthermore, if the two roots can arise at the same moment, then no one can be mindful of them and abandon them at the same time.

"And how does a monk remain focused on the mind in & of itself? There is the case where a monk, when the mind has passion, discerns that the mind has passion. When the mind is without passion, he discerns that the mind is without passion. When the mind has aversion, he discerns that the mind has aversion. When the mind is without aversion, he discerns that the mind is without aversion. When the mind has delusion, he discerns that the mind has delusion. When the mind is without delusion, he discerns that the mind is without delusion." [ Satipatthana Sutta]

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Re: Lobha, Dosa mutually exclusive: Sutta reference?

Postby mikenz66 » Sat Jul 24, 2010 2:19 am

Thanks for the comments Tep. It seems implicit in the Abhidhamma classification that lobha and dosa (greed and hatred) are mutually exclusive roots (e.g. see I.4 of Comprehensive Manual of Abhidhamma). However, it is stated that mula (delusion) is always present when one of the other two arise.

Mike
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Re: Lobha, Dosa mutually exclusive: Sutta reference?

Postby mud » Sat Jul 24, 2010 6:18 am

Hi Tep
Thanks for you reply,
However I am not sure if I fully agree with your interpretation.
dhamma_spoon wrote:They cannot arise at the same time since dosa (aversion) is repulsive and lobha is attractive, thus they are opposite and do not co-exist.
----

Indeed I have heard this and it does seem very reasonable (in fact I am inclined to believe it), however, aside from abhidhamma interpretation and from later teachers, are you aware of the Buddha saying this in a discorse?

The Satipatthana Sutta is stating that the monk should be aware of mind affected/unaffected by lobha, dosa, and moha etc. It seems to working backwards to say that this shows only one can arise at a time, I don’t see anything in the sutta which says they cannot.

If this sutta is saying that they cannot arise at the same time then one would logically conclude (from the sutta) that Lobha, dosa AND moha are mutually exclusive.

dhamma_spoon wrote:Furthermore, if the two roots can arise at the same moment, then no one can be mindful of them and abandon them at the same time.
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Why not?
Lobha & moha, and dosa & moha arise at the same time, then how is one supposed to be mindful of both of them?

Actually what got me thinking about this is one day I noticed an ‘impatient’ mind. It really feels like dosa and lobha at the same time: dosa-not wanting the present situation and lobha- wanting to get moving.
The feeling is not a pleasant one! from Abhidhamma then an unpleasant feeling is always accompanied dosa (or vice-versa depending how you look at it). So here we have dosa; but at the ‘same time’ there is craving.
I understand the Abhidhamma will say that it is one mind of dosa quickly followed by one of lobha and so on; but without being able to see every mind moment I have to take this on total faith: which I’m not very happy about.


I don’t be to be a pain about this, nor am I looking to prove that the Lobha-dosa thing is false, I’m simply looking for some evidence.

Thanks for your time
Mark
Last edited by mud on Sat Jul 24, 2010 6:41 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Lobha, Dosa mutually exclusive: Sutta reference?

Postby Sobeh » Sat Jul 24, 2010 6:26 am

I'd like to know why this question is being asked...

Aside from idle curiosity about simultaneity, is this the sort of question spawned by one's meditation, through some aspect of practical Sila, ...or is it just a chase after wind? Perhaps there are no Suttas which decide this issue one way or the other. I am asking, does there even need to be such?
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Re: Lobha, Dosa mutually exclusive: Sutta reference?

Postby mud » Sat Jul 24, 2010 6:40 am

Sobeh wrote:I'd like to know why this question is being asked...

Aside from idle curiosity about simultaneity, is this the sort of question spawned by one's meditation, through some aspect of practical Sila, ...or is it just a chase after wind? Perhaps there are no Suttas which decide this issue one way or the other. I am asking, does there even need to be such?


Hi Sobeh,,
If Abhidhamma is to be of any use rather than a metaphysical philosophy, then it must be relevant to one's practice.
If one is concerned about the truth then I think this is relevant.
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Re: Lobha, Dosa mutually exclusive: Sutta reference?

Postby mikenz66 » Sat Jul 24, 2010 7:19 am

Dear All,

Please remember that in the Classical Mahavihara Forums the Abhidhamma and Commentaries are considered authoritative for the purposes of discussion.
viewtopic.php?f=18&t=374

The question of whether the Abhidhamma classification of wholesome and unwholesome roots is explicitly mentioned in the Suttas is on-topic in so far as it is a request for clarification of the relationship between the Suttas and Abhidhamma.

And it may well have relevance to practise, though such issues should be discussed in other areas of the Forum if they are not firmly based on the Classical Theravada.

Mike
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Re: Lobha, Dosa mutually exclusive: Sutta reference?

Postby dhamma_spoon » Sat Jul 24, 2010 12:14 pm

mikenz66 wrote:Thanks for the comments Tep. It seems implicit in the Abhidhamma classification that lobha and dosa (greed and hatred) are mutually exclusive roots (e.g. see I.4 of Comprehensive Manual of Abhidhamma). However, it is stated that mula (delusion) is always present when one of the other two arise.

Mike


Dear Mike, Mud and others -

In another post it is mentioned that pleasure (sukha vedana) and pain(dukkha vedana) do not arise at the same time. And this idea supports the Abhidhamma that you are talking about.
The observation that delusion (moha) "is always present when one of the other two [roots] arise" is very important. Do you know why delusion is "there" all the time? I think it is because delusion, or ignorance, is the supporting condition.

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