Craving v Clinging in DO

[Spiny Norman]

I still can't work out the difference between craving ( tanha ) and clinging ( upadana ) in dependent origination.

I've seen tanha translated as "craving" and "attachment to desire".
I've seen upadana translated as "clinging", "attachment" and "grasping".

I find these descriptions hard to distinguish from an experiential point of view, but presumably there must be a significant difference if upadana arises in dependence on tanha?

I hope you can help.

P

[Reductor]

You can also define craving as "seeking for delight" while clinging is "delighting in"... so craving is a seeking activity or anticipatory activity, while clinging is a holding and relishing activity.

Hope that helps a little bit.

[Spiny Norman]

You can also define craving as "seeking for delight" while clinging is "delighting in"... so craving is a seeking activity or anticipatory activity, while clinging is a holding and relishing activity.

Hope that helps a little bit.

Yes, that makes sense. Though experientially I find that seeking and clinging are very difficult to separate.

P

[Reductor]

Yes, that makes sense. Though experientially I find that seeking and clinging are very difficult to separate.

P

Well, that makes sense too, doesn't it? It is, after all, dependent origination.

Past clinging conditions present craving, and present craving leads future clinging.

Or, craving leads to seeking, seeking to questing and the questing to accumulation, and it is the accumulations that we cling to.

Just spend more time with your mind and it'll become clearer, I'm certain.

[Spiny Norman]

Yes, that makes sense. Though experientially I find that seeking and clinging are very difficult to separate.

P

Well, that makes sense too, doesn't it? It is, after all, dependent origination.

Past clinging conditions present craving, and present craving leads future clinging.

Or, craving leads to seeking, seeking to questing and the questing to accumulation, and it is the accumulations that we cling to.

Just spend more time with your mind and it'll become clearer, I'm certain.

Yes, thanks, helpful observations.

P

[PeterB]

I dont think most of us have a problem with what we are being taught about craving. As a concept I mean..I am sure that we are all too familiar with craving itself. My own view is that we overemphasis " clinging". Clinging it seems to me is what happens in the absence of seeing things the way they are. So rather than tying ourselves in knots in order not to cling, I think it more profitable to examine the roots of that clinging. We tend instead to make lists for ourselves of things not to cling to.

[Reductor]

I dont think most of us have a problem with what we are being taught about craving. As a concept I mean..I am sure that we are all too familiar with craving itself. My own view is that we overemphasis " clinging". Clinging it seems to me is what happens in the absence of seeing things the way they are. So rather than tying ourselves in knots in order not to cling, I think it more profitable to examine the roots of that clinging. We tend instead to make lists for ourselves of things not to cling to.

Craving also follows from lack of understanding.

The purpose of the DO teaching is to undermine that ignorance. To see and know that: it is not permanent, it is not free of affliction, it is not a self, nor is it property of a self. All those things can be seen from the perspective of DO.

I agree of course that we shouldn't tie ourselves into a knot. I've been there, done that. Pointless. However, it is easy to slip into the other extreme of complacency. The the beauty of the DO teaching is that just by observing it as it works itself out again and again we loosen the clinging and abandon craving in a more natural fashion. We abandon not just a list of things, but the whole breadth of experience.

Well, we do so a little at a time.

[Sunrise]

You can also define craving as "seeking for delight" while clinging is "delighting in"... so craving is a seeking activity or anticipatory activity, while clinging is a holding and relishing activity.

Hope that helps a little bit.

Yes, that makes sense. Though experientially I find that seeking and clinging are very difficult to separate.

P

There are some links in the 12 links that are difficult to seperate in practice because they occure one after the other rapidly. If you are not mindful enough you cannot really distinguish the differences. For example, becoming - > birth