A quote from Ajahn Brahm

[Laurens]

"...For evolution, how does that actually work? What drives evolution? It's not just by chance, actually what drives evolution is desire and craving to evolve"

(from this video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=htQ12Z2MV0Q" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;)

With respect to the guy, I have to say this is idiocy. What drives evolution, is not craving and desire to evolve... It's natural selection - which is the antithesis of chance. Yes the mutations are random, but the means by which the advantageous mutations are selected is anything but random.

How on earth does craving and desire have any effect whatsoever on evolution? It cannot give you any more chance of passing on your genes, it cannot force future generations to mutate in advantageous ways, it cannot in any way affect evolution whatsoever. Even if I desire that humans evolve the ability to breathe underwater, that does not in any way shape or form have any bearing on the actual outcome of natural selection. I have to say I lost a lot of respect for Ajahn Brahm after hearing him say that.

If you don't know anything about evolution, you shouldn't go around talking about it. Monk or otherwise.

Perhaps someone should give him a biology book to look at.

Laurens

[Goedert]

You vision is right.

Scientically beings envole by means of natural selection, 'Only the strong survive'. The beings who are cappable to live in the harsh and extreme conditions are the ones that can reproduct, passing the DNA and RNA combinations to next generations.

We have to see the context of this statament, because science say another thing very different from Ajahn Brahm.

[acinteyyo]

Hi Laurens,

I don't think you got the point.

What drives evolution, is not craving and desire to evolve... It's natural selection ...

Naturally there's evolution acertainable, the "rules" or scientific regularities, which have been observed by which evolution happens is called natural selection.

Evolution is the change in the inherited traits of a population of organisms through successive generations

In order that there can be change in traits, they have to be passed on in some way to successive generations.
But what drives this process of passing on traits to successive generations? What drives organisms to pass on their genes?
It's craving.

How on earth does craving and desire have any effect whatsoever on evolution? It cannot give you any more chance of passing on your genes, it cannot force future generations to mutate in advantageous ways, it cannot in any way affect evolution whatsoever.

If there wouldn't be any craving at all, why would anyone pass on his or her genes? Certainly it cannot force future generations to do anything, but could there be evolution if there wouldn't be any craving at all? In order for evolution to happen there have to be traits passed on. Without heredity transmisson there's no way for evolution to happen and without any craving, there's no heredity transmission.

What I'm trying to say is, organisms envole by means of natural selection, but if there wouldn't be craving and desire for the various things to do, in order to pass on traits, there couldn't be evolution.

Just my two cents...

best wishes, acinteyyo

[Laurens]

His words are 'craving to evolve' not 'craving sex' or 'craving to reproduce'...

[Fruitzilla]

I think this reply: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KauGMZVB ... h_response pretty much hits a homerun where the intellectual honesty of the talk is concerned.

[Modus.Ponens]

I think this reply: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KauGMZVB ... h_response pretty much hits a homerun where the intellectual honesty of the talk is concerned.

Are you being ironical? Because I don't see any intelectual honesty in his words. He even has problems with calling Ajahn Brahm Ajahn Brahm, let alone dealing with buddhist questions.

Of course Ajahn Brahm is wrong in what concerns evolution.

[Goedert]

I think this reply: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KauGMZVB ... h_response pretty much hits a homerun where the intellectual honesty of the talk is concerned.

That is a strong point.

Because a talk like this (Ajahn Brahm), many people get a wrong view about buddhism (this guy).

[Fruitzilla]

I think this reply: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KauGMZVB ... h_response pretty much hits a homerun where the intellectual honesty of the talk is concerned.

Are you being ironical? Because I don't see any intelectual honesty in his words. He even has problems with calling Ajahn Brahm Ajahn Brahm, let alone dealing with buddhist questions.

Of course Ajahn Brahm is wrong in what concerns evolution.

Well, apart from the tone of the guy, he does make a lot of valid points. I see Ajahn Brahm use "evidence" in the same way I've heard Christians use it very often. He only uses what is in favour of his argument, and portrays it in a light as favourable as possible. I think the reply makes that rather clear.
That's pretty much what I meant by the lack of intellectual honesty of the talk.

There's lots of discussion regarding Stevenson also, and there's some pretty good critical points made in regards to his methodology. Which ofcourse never get mentioned by people who have an agenda to push....

[Viscid]

Well, you can interpret that however you like:

Such as:
No evolution in Nibbana!
or
Ajahn Brahm isn't a scientist but believes his metaphysical convictions are solid enough to make such declarations.

[Goedert]

In fact there is a lot of non-sense that is presented to people as buddhism. That is the counterfait dhamma.

[m0rl0ck]

"...For evolution, how does that actually work? What drives evolution? It's not just by chance, actually what drives evolution is desire and craving to evolve"

(from this video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=htQ12Z2MV0Q" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;)

With respect to the guy, I have to say this is idiocy. What drives evolution, is not craving and desire to evolve... It's natural selection - which is the antithesis of chance. Yes the mutations are random, but the means by which the advantageous mutations are selected is anything but random.

How on earth does craving and desire have any effect whatsoever on evolution? It cannot give you any more chance of passing on your genes, it cannot force future generations to mutate in advantageous ways, it cannot in any way affect evolution whatsoever. Even if I desire that humans evolve the ability to breathe underwater, that does not in any way shape or form have any bearing on the actual outcome of natural selection. I have to say I lost a lot of respect for Ajahn Brahm after hearing him say that.

If you don't know anything about evolution, you shouldn't go around talking about it. Monk or otherwise.

Perhaps someone should give him a biology book to look at.

Laurens

Something drives the big whatever it is to manifest in form. Calling it craving seems a good enough name for it. Rather than giving AB a biology book to look at, i suggest you perfect your instrument of observation to the level he has.

[Alex123]

"...For evolution, how does that actually work? What drives evolution? It's not just by chance, actually what drives evolution is desire and craving to evolve"

(from this video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=htQ12Z2MV0Q" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;)

With respect to the guy, I have to say this is idiocy. What drives evolution, is not craving and desire to evolve... It's natural selection - which is the antithesis of chance. Yes the mutations are random, but the means by which the advantageous mutations are selected is anything but random.

How on earth does craving and desire have any effect whatsoever on evolution? It cannot give you any more chance of passing on your genes, it cannot force future generations to mutate in advantageous ways, it cannot in any way affect evolution whatsoever. Even if I desire that humans evolve the ability to breathe underwater, that does not in any way shape or form have any bearing on the actual outcome of natural selection. I have to say I lost a lot of respect for Ajahn Brahm after hearing him say that.

If you don't know anything about evolution, you shouldn't go around talking about it. Monk or otherwise.

Perhaps someone should give him a biology book to look at.

Laurens

I will have to see the vid.

The only thing that I can suggest is that desire does play a big role in human evolution. Those who desire more invent more things to satisfy those desires and conquer those people who didn't.

Also desire can be a very powerful motivator for action. The more you want to get something, the more likely you are to actually do it.


IMHO.

[Goedert]

DNA and its constituints have nothing to do with desire.

Human evolution come from DNA, not craving.

Remember we are talk about elements, fire, water, earth, air. We are not talking about mind and its objects.

If you guys think something different I suggest you a bit of wiki:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_evol ... y_genetics" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Buddhism is not insanity of mind.

[appicchato]

To me evolution covers all of life here on Earth...with the exception of humans ( and not too long ago them as well) who, or what, was/is craving to evolve?...humans are, in many ways, basically the most screwed up life form there is...

[retrofuturist]

Greetings,

To me evolution covers all of life here on Earth...with the exception of humans ( and not too long ago them as well) who, or what, was/is craving to evolve?.....

It's interesting, because I doubt whether any other species can even conceive of the notion of the evolution of a species... continuance of the species perhaps, but I doubt they could fathom such an elaborate concept. Yet, species do evolve. Viruses evolve. Do viruses crave evolution?

I've not seen the video above (can't access it at the moment), but based on the wording alone, I think Ajahn Brahma's logic is rather spurious and unnecessarily speculative.

Metta,
Retro.