Chinese version of MN 117 is different?

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Re: Chinese version of MN 117 is different?

Postby Paññāsikhara » Fri Mar 19, 2010 4:38 am

...
Last edited by Paññāsikhara on Fri Mar 19, 2010 4:43 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Chinese version of MN 117 is different?

Postby retrofuturist » Fri Mar 19, 2010 4:41 am

Greetings bhante,

Paññāsikhara wrote:Differences do not necessitate the idea of "doctoring", implying deliberate and calculated changes. A basic understanding of early sutta transmission should put this accusation to rest.


Yes, that is precisely my point.

Paññāsikhara wrote:Then it is not an issue of praise or blame at all.


Precisely so, or rather, it shouldn't be "an issue of praise or blame at all"

It would be a double-standard to waggle the finger at others and accuse them of "doctoring" and heterodox views if one were not prepared to put one's own tradition up under such scrutiny. When a deviation is alleged to be the result of "doctoring", it often isn't... hence Tilt's elegant explanation "Time and distance".

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Re: Chinese version of MN 117 is different?

Postby Cittasanto » Fri Mar 19, 2010 6:41 am

to the above two posts :twothumbsup:
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Re: Chinese version of MN 117 is different?

Postby Wind » Fri Mar 19, 2010 7:31 am

Does the Pali and Chinese Tipitaka have the same amount of Sutta Nikayas?

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Re: Chinese version of MN 117 is different?

Postby retrofuturist » Fri Mar 19, 2010 7:44 am

Greetings Wind,

Wind wrote:Does the Pali and Chinese Tipitaka have the same amount of Sutta Nikayas?


There's considerable overlap and there's Chinese equivalents of DN, MN & SN.... plus some suttas which are in one Pali Nikaya may find their way into a different Agama. I think the Chinese equivalent of MN has more suttas than the Pali one mainly on account of it also including some suttas found in the Anguttara Nikaya etc.

Metta,
Retro. :)
If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding:
Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)


Exalted in mind, just open and clearly aware, the recluse trained in the ways of the sages:
One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7


Dharma Wheel (Mahayana / Vajrayana forum) -- Open flower ~ Open book (blog)

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Re: Chinese version of MN 117 is different?

Postby vinasp » Fri Mar 19, 2010 4:12 pm

Hi everyone,

There seems to be an important point that people are overlooking here. This is, that descriptions of the path are not fixed objective realities. The path is the removal of a number of defilements. If one defines these defilements in a different way, that will increase or decrease the number of things to be removed. If two things were previously removed together, but are now to be removed one after the other, then an extra stage has appeared.
This means that the path description depends on the teaching being given to any particular group of monks. There can easily be two, or more, descriptions of the path, which fit different sets of instructions for the monks. These paths can appear to be different - but they are essentially the same. The end result is the same.
In other words, changing the teaching method requires also changing the path description. Its not really about 'doctoring' or corruption of the teachings. Two different descriptions of the path can both be correct, in their proper context.

Best wishes, Vincent.

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Re: Chinese version of MN 117 is different?

Postby mud » Fri Jul 30, 2010 6:34 am

The links don't seem to be working:


The Chinese translation: http://ariyavansa.org/dd-home/dd-030/

MN 117 with the differences in bold type: http://ariyavansa.org/dd-home/dd-030/dd-030s/


Do you have a copy of the file?

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Re: Chinese version of MN 117 is different?

Postby Goedert » Fri Jul 30, 2010 1:55 pm

This links don't work.

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Re: Chinese version of MN 117 is different?

Postby poto » Fri Aug 20, 2010 2:47 am

mud wrote:The links don't seem to be working:


The Chinese translation: http://ariyavansa.org/dd-home/dd-030/

MN 117 with the differences in bold type: http://ariyavansa.org/dd-home/dd-030/dd-030s/


Do you have a copy of the file?


Looks like they are gone from the site, but google cache still has a copy of the MN 177 page here:
http://www.google.com/#hl=en&source=hp& ... 9e9b60f3a3

In case that cache dies, here's a copy:
MN-117 » Mahácattárisaka Sutta





Discourse of the Great Forty



1. I have heard that on one occasion the Buddha was living in Sávatthi at Jeta’s Grove, Anáthapindika’s Park. There he addressed the community saying: “Friends.” “Venerable sir,” they replied. The Buddha said this:

2. “Friends, I shall speak of noble right concentration with its required supports. Listen and attend closely to what I say.” “Yes, venerable sir,” they replied. The Buddha said this:

3. “What is noble right concentration with its required supports; those being, right view, right intention, right speech, right action, right livelihood, right effort, and right mindfulness? Unification of mind supported by these seven qualities is called noble right concentration with its required supports.

__View__

4. “Herein, right view comes first. How does right view come first? One understands wrong view as wrong view and right view and right view; this is one’s right view.

5. “And what is wrong view? ‘There is nothing given, nothing offered, nothing sacrificed; no fruit or result of good and bad actions; no this world or other world; no mother or father; no beings who are reborn spontaneously; no good and virtuous individuals in the world who have realised for themselves by direct knowledge and declare this world and the other world.’ This is wrong view.

6. “And what is right view? Right view, I say, is twofold: there is right view that is affected by taints, partaking of merit, ripening in the acquisitions; and there is right view that is noble, taintless, supramundane, a factor of the path.

7. “And what is right view that is affected by the taints, partaking of merit, ripening in the acquisitions? ‘There is what is given and what is offered and what is sacrificed; there is benefit and result of good and bad actions; there is this world and the other world; there is mother and father; there are beings who are reborn spontaneously; there are in the world good and virtuous individuals who have realised for themselves by direct knowledge and declare this world and the other world.’ This is right view affected by taints, partaking of merit, ripening in the acquisitions.

8. “And what is right view that is noble, taintless, supramundane, a factor of the path? The wisdom, the faculty of wisdom, the power of wisdom, the investigation-of-states enlightenment factor, the path factor of right view in one whose mind is noble, whose mind is taintless, who possesses the noble path and is developing the noble path: this is right view that is noble, taintless, supramundane, a factor of the path.

9. “Herein, one makes an effort to abandon wrong view and to enter upon right view; this is one’s right effort. And mindfully one abandons wrong view, mindfully one enters upon and abides in right view: this one’s right mindfulness. Thus, these three qualities relate to and work with right view; that is, right view, right effort, and right mindfulness.

__Intention__

10. “Herein, right view comes first. And how does right view come first? One understands wrong intention as wrong intention and right intention as right intention: this is one’s right view.

11. “And what is wrong intention? The intention of ill will, and the intention of cruelty; this is wrong intention.

12. “And what is right intention? Right intention, I say, is twofold: there is right intention that is affected by taints, partaking of merit, ripening in acquisitions; and there is right intention that is noble, taintless, supramundane, a factor of the path.

13. “And what is right intention that is affected by taints, partaking of merit, ripening in acquisitions? The intention of simplicity, the intention of non-ill will, and the intention of non-cruelty; this is right intention that is affected by taints, partaking of merit, ripening in acquisitions.

14. “And what is right intention that is noble, taintless, supramundane, a factor of the path? The thinking, thought, intention, mental absorption, mental fixity, directing of mind, verbal formation in one whose mind is noble, whose mind is taintless, who possesses the noble path and is developing the noble path; this is right intention that is noble, taintless, supramundane, a factor of the path.

15. “Herein, one makes an effort to abandon wrong intention and to enter upon right intention; this is one’s right effort. And mindfully one abandons wrong intention, mindfully one enters upon and abides in right intention; this is one’s right mindfulness. Thus, these three qualities relate to and work with right intention; that is, right view, right effort, and right mindfulness.

__Speech__

16. “Herein, right view comes first. And how does right view come first? One understands wrong speech as wrong speech and right speech as right speech; this is one’s right view.

17. “And what is wrong speech? False speech, malicious speech, harsh speech, and gossip; this is wrong speech.

18. “And what is right speech? Right speech, I say, is twofold; there is right speech that is affected by taints, partaking of merit, ripening in acquisitions; and there is right speech that is noble, taintless, supramundane, a factor of the path.

19. “And what is right speech that is affected by taints, partaking of merit, ripening in the acquisitions? Abstinence from harsh speech, abstinence from malicious speech, abstinence from harsh speech, abstinence from gossip; this is right speech that is affected by taints, partaking of merit, ripening in acquisitions.

20. “And what is right speech that is noble, taintless, supramundane, a factor of the path? The desisting from the four kinds of verbal misconduct, the abstaining, refraining, abstinence from them in one whose mind is noble, whose mind is taintless, who possesses the noble path and is developing the noble path; this is right speech that is noble, taintless, supramundane, a factor of the path.

21. “Herein, one makes an effort to abandon wrong speech and to enter upon right speech; this is one’s right effort. Mindfully one abandons wrong speech, mindfully one enters upon and abides in right speech: this is one’s right mindfulness. Thus, these three qualities relate to and work with right speech; that is, right view, right effort, and right mindfulness.

__Action__

22. “Herein, right view comes first. And how does right view come first? One understands wrong action as wrong action and right action as right action; this is one’s right view.

23. “And what is wrong action? Killing living beings, taking what is not given, and misconduct in sensual pleasures; this is wrong action.

24. “And what is right action? Right action, I say, is twofold; there is right action that is affected by taints, partaking of merit, ripening in acquisitions; and there is right action that is noble, taintless, supramundane, a factor of the path.

25. “And what is right action that is affected by taints, partaking of merit, ripening in acquisitions? Abstinence from killing living beings, abstinence from taking what is not given, abstinence from misconduct in sensual pleasures; this is right action that is affected by taints, partaking of merit, ripening in acquisitions.

26. “And what is right action that is noble, taintless, supramundane, a factor of the path? The desisting from the three kinds of bodily misconduct, the abstaining, refraining, abstinence from them in one whose mind is noble, whose mind is taintless, who possesses the noble path and is developing the noble path; this is right action that is noble, taintless, supramundane, a factor of the path.

27. “Herein, one makes an effort to abandon wrong action and to enter upon right action; this is one’s right effort. Mindfully one abandons wrong action, mindfully one enters upon and dwells in right action; this is one’s right mindfulness. Thus these three qualities relate to and work with right action; that is, right view, right effort, and right mindfulness.

__Livelihood__

28. “Herein, right view comes first. And how does right view come first? One understands wrong livelihood as wrong livelihood and right livelihood as right livelihood; this is one’s right view.

29. “And what is wrong livelihood? Scheming, talking, hinting, belittling, pursuing gain with gain; this is wrong livelihood.

30. “And what is right livelihood? Right livelihood, I say, is twofold; there is right livelihood that is affected by taints, partaking of merit, ripening in acquisitions; and there is right livelihood that is noble, taintless, supramundane, a factor of the path.

31. “And what is right livelihood that is affected by taints, partaking of merit, ripening in acquisitions? Here, a noble disciple abandons wrong livelihood and gains their living by right livelihood; this is right livelihood that is affected by taints, partaking of merit, ripening in acquisitions.

32. “And what is right livelihood that is noble, taintless, supramundane, a factor of the path? The desisting from wrong livelihood, the abstaining, refraining, abstinence from it in one whose mind is noble, whose mind is taintless, who possesses the noble path and is developing the noble path; this is right livelihood that is noble, taintless, supramundane, a factor of the path.

33. “Herein, one makes an effort to abandon wrong livelihood and to enter upon right livelihood; this is one’s right effort. Mindfully one abandons wrong livelihood, mindfully one enters upon and dwells in right livelihood; this is one’s right mindfulness. Thus these tree qualities relate to and work with right livelihood; that is, right view, right effort, and right mindfulness.

__The Great Forty__

34. “Herein, right view comes first. And how does right view come first? In one with right view, right intention comes into being; in one with right intention, right speech comes into being; in one with right speech, right action comes into being; in one with right action, right livelihood comes into being; in one with right livelihood, right effort comes into being; in one with right effort, right mindfulness comes into being; in one with right mindfulness, right concentration comes into being; in one with right concentration, right knowledge comes into being; in one with right knowledge, right deliverance comes into being. Thus, the path of the disciple in higher training possesses eight qualities, the arahant possesses ten qualities.

35. “Herein, right view comes first. And how does right view come first?

“With right view, wrong view is abolished, and the many evil unwholesome states that originate with wrong view as condition are also abolished, and the many wholesome states that originate with right view as condition come to fulfilment by development.

“With right intention, wrong intention is abolished, and the many evil unwholesome states that originate with wrong intention as condition are also abolished, and the many wholesome states that originate with right intention as condition come to fulfilment by development.

“With right speech, wrong speech is abolished, and the many evil unwholesome states that originate with wrong speech as condition are also abolished, and the many wholesome states that originate with right speech as condition come to fulfilment by development.

“With right action, wrong action is abolished, and the many evil unwholesome states that originate with wrong action as condition are also abolished, and the many wholesome states that originate with right action as condition come to fulfilment by development.

“With right livelihood, wrong livelihood is abolished, and the many evil unwholesome states that originate with wrong livelihood as condition are also abolished, and the many wholesome states that originate with right livelihood as condition come to fulfilment by development.

“With right effort, wrong effort is abolished, and the many evil unwholesome states that originate with wrong effort as condition are also abolished, and the many wholesome states that originate with right effort as condition come to fulfilment by development.

“With right mindfulness, wrong mindfulness is abolished, and the many evil unwholesome states that originate with wrong mindfulness as condition are also abolished, and the many wholesome states that originate with right mindfulness as condition come to fulfilment by development.

“With right concentration, wrong concentration is abolished, and the many evil unwholesome states that originate with wrong concentration as condition are also abolished, and the many wholesome states that originate with right concentration as condition come to fulfilment by development.

“With right knowledge, wrong knowledge is abolished, and the many evil unwholesome states that originate with wrong knowledge as condition are also abolished, and the many wholesome states that originate with right knowledge as condition come to fulfilment by development.

“With right deliverance, wrong deliverance is abolished, and the many evil unwholesome states that originate with wrong deliverance as condition are also abolished, and the many wholesome states that originate with right deliverance as condition come to fulfilment by development.

36. “Thus, there are twenty qualities on the side of the wholesome, and twenty qualities on the side of the unwholesome. This Dhamma discourse on the Great Forty has been set rolling and cannot be stopped by any recluse or brahmin or good or Mára or Brahmá or anyone else in the world.

37. “If any one thinks that this Dhamma discourse on the Great Forty should be censured and rejected, then there are ten legitimate deductions from their assertions that would provide grounds for censuring them here and now. If they censure right view, then they would honour and praise wrong view. If they censure right intention, then they would honour and praise wrong intention. If they censure right speech, then they would honour and praise wrong speech. If they censure right action, then they would honour and praise wrong action. If they censure right livelihood, then they would honour and praise wrong livelihood. If they censure right effort, then they would honour and praise wrong effort. If they censure right mindfulness, then they would honour and praise wrong mindfulness. If they censure right concentration, then they would honour and praise wrong concentration. If they censure right knowledge, then they would honour and praise wrong knowledge. If they censure right deliverance, then they would honour and praise wrong deliverance. If any one thinks that this Dhamma discourse on the Great Forty should be censured and rejected, then these are ten legitimate deductions from their assertions that would provide grounds for censuring them here and now.

38. “Even those teachers from Okkala, Vassa and Bhañña, who held the doctrine of non-causality, the doctrine of non-doing, and the doctrine of nihilism, would not think that this Dhamma discourse on the Great Forty should be censured and rejected. Why is that? For fear of blame, attack, and confutation.”

That is what the Buddha said and the community was satisfied and delighted in his words.
"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." -- C. S. Lewis

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Re: Chinese version of MN 117 is different?

Postby Kim OHara » Fri Aug 20, 2010 4:00 am

Thanks for that file, Poto - and welcome back :hello:
I haven't seen you around here for a while.
:namaste:
Kim

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Re: Chinese version of MN 117 is different?

Postby poto » Fri Aug 20, 2010 11:23 pm

Kim O'Hara wrote:Thanks for that file, Poto - and welcome back :hello:
I haven't seen you around here for a while.
:namaste:
Kim


Glad I could be of use.

I've been around, just spent some time on retreat earlier this year. Also have been trying to spend more time on my practice.
"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." -- C. S. Lewis


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