Non-Doing

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Non-Doing

Post by Ceisiwr »

My recollection of that part of Ajahn Brahm's book was that this was a technique that could be used when experiencing difficulties in the more routine methods.
He states that each stage needs to be perfected before moving on in his book, so you start with perfecting awareness of the moment, removing thoughts perceptions etc about past and future, then you move on to remove all thinking, then onto silent present moment of the breath and so on up into the immaterial meditations.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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mikenz66
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Re: Non-Doing

Post by mikenz66 »

clw_uk wrote:
My recollection of that part of Ajahn Brahm's book was that this was a technique that could be used when experiencing difficulties in the more routine methods.
He states that each stage needs to be perfected before moving on in his book, so you start with perfecting awareness of the moment, removing thoughts perceptions etc about past and future, then you move on to remove all thinking, then onto silent present moment of the breath and so on up into the immaterial meditations.
Where does Ajahn Brahm say that you should "perfect" each stage? What he says is to spend enough time on each stage, and not rush it.

He certainly doesn't instruct to "remove all thinking, then...". That would be impossible. He talks about "developing inner silence".
Ajahn Brahm wrote:At the end of each meditation session,spend two or three minutes reviewing
all that has happened during that session. There is no need to “take
notes” (that is, remind oneself to remember) during the meditation, because
you will find it easy to remember the important features at the end.
Was it peaceful or frustrating? Now ask yourself why.What did you do to
experience peace, or what caused the feeling of frustration? If your mind
wandered off into fantasy land,was that peaceful and useful? Such reviewing
and inquiry only at the end of the session generates insight into how to
meditate and what meditation is. No one starts out as a perfect meditator.
Metta
Mike
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mikenz66
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Re: Non-Doing

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tiltbillings wrote: Choiceless awareness is a term coined by J. Krishnamurti and adopted and adapted by American vipassana teachers such as Jack Kornfeild and Joseph Goldstein.
That's an interesting observation. Nevertheless, it seems to have become a popular expression in various Asian circles. Not just Thailand, but also various Malaysian teachers.

E.g. Bhante Sujiva, a Mahasi-Style teacher, in "Essentials of insight meditation practice" PDF here: http://www.sujiva.wz.cz/english/books_eng.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
P 90
If one’s mindfulness and concentration do develop, then even
subtle mental phenomena become clear, and subtle aspects
of gross material phenomena are also observed. At those
phases, mental phenomena are watched more frequently.

At such times the effort is made mainly to maintain or
guard the mindfulness to ensure its continuity. The mind is
left to choose its objects, and one has no time to think. With
practice, mindfulness goes on by itself. This is also the time
when labeling is dropped. This type of undirected mindfulness
is called Choiceless Awareness which is often more
stable but comes about only after much practice.
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nathan
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Re: Non-Doing

Post by nathan »

This can be a difficult idea to understand without it's proper context and I'm not sure why it is so often presented without a context. Understanding the place of this kind of mentality and the techniques used to promote it within the overall path of meditative practice may help some to better understand it's importance. I equate this kind of non-doing or choiceless awareness with maintaining access concentration which is of course necessary for the practice of vipassana. This is the fluid and mobile, and so broadly employed, yet highly acute kind of attentiveness which is quite important for the development of insight.

If this kind of awareness feels unnatural it can be helpful to note and promote this quality of mind when and as it arises naturally and when it will not arise naturally with ease it can be helpful to note which hindrances are present at that time and to briefly employ a meditative theme suitable for overcoming any hindrances opposing a natural flow of a mindfulness of body and mind in the ongoing present.
But whoever walking, standing, sitting, or lying down overcomes thought, delighting in the stilling of thought: he's capable, a monk like this, of touching superlative self-awakening. § 110. {Iti 4.11; Iti 115}
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mikenz66
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Re: Non-Doing

Post by mikenz66 »

Hi Nathan,

Where I've seen it presented (e.g. in Bhante Sujiva's book, or by other teachers) it is considered reasonably "advanced", I think.

My experience is that if I have built up enough mindfulness and concentration (after several days of retreat), then I can sometimes just sit and watch whatever is going past (without any "primary object", in the Mahasi sense, to anchor the attention). However, I notice a danger that if mindfulness is not strong enough I drift off into a rather unhelpful state...

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Mike
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Non-Doing

Post by Ceisiwr »

I should have said "remove all critical thought" as in thinking about what your doing instead of experiencing it

As for perfections i simply meant to have developed it as a strong foundation
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
nathan
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Re: Non-Doing

Post by nathan »

mikenz66 wrote:Hi Nathan,

Where I've seen it presented (e.g. in Bhante Sujiva's book, or by other teachers) it is considered reasonably "advanced", I think.

My experience is that if I have built up enough mindfulness and concentration (after several days of retreat), then I can sometimes just sit and watch whatever is going past (without any "primary object", in the Mahasi sense, to anchor the attention). However, I notice a danger that if mindfulness is not strong enough I drift off into a rather unhelpful state...

Metta
Mike
I agree that it is not as easy as it often sounds when we learn about it. Access concentration is probably difficult for most people to enter into and maintain prior to sufficient experience of clearly entering into it. I think this is because attention is not sufficiently paid to the hindrances. When I noticed this opposing nature of the hindrances I made attending to and overcoming the hindrances my top priority and this made a huge difference to my overall facility for entering into a steady access concentration. I don't know why the hindrances get so little attention but I think that they should get a lot more attention. When you focus on the arising, persisting and disappearance of the hindrances you develop insight and concentration together in a very useful way which can then be further applied during access concentration and both qualities can be further refined in the same kind of mutually supportive way.
But whoever walking, standing, sitting, or lying down overcomes thought, delighting in the stilling of thought: he's capable, a monk like this, of touching superlative self-awakening. § 110. {Iti 4.11; Iti 115}
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mikenz66
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Re: Non-Doing

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Hi Nathan,
nathan wrote:I agree that it is not as easy as it often sounds when we learn about it. Access concentration is probably difficult for most people to enter into and maintain prior to sufficient experience of clearly entering into it. I think this is because attention is not sufficiently paid to the hindrances.
...
You may be right. I was going to say that I have read hundreds of pages and listened to dozens of talks on the hindrances (oops, I already said it...) but perhaps I have not taken on board this point enough.
nathan wrote: When you focus on the arising, persisting and disappearance of the hindrances you develop insight and concentration together in a very useful way which can then be further applied during access concentration and both qualities can be further refined in the same kind of mutually supportive way.
From where I am you're talking about taking the hindrances themselves as the object. I do, of course, do this to a certain extent, focussing on desire, aversion, sloth, etc, but perhaps I'm not paying enough interested attention to them...

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Mike
nathan
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Re: Non-Doing

Post by nathan »

mikenz66 wrote:Hi Nathan,
nathan wrote:I agree that it is not as easy as it often sounds when we learn about it. Access concentration is probably difficult for most people to enter into and maintain prior to sufficient experience of clearly entering into it. I think this is because attention is not sufficiently paid to the hindrances.
...
You may be right. I was going to say that I have read hundreds of pages and listened to dozens of talks on the hindrances (oops, I already said it...) but perhaps I have not taken on board this point enough.
nathan wrote: When you focus on the arising, persisting and disappearance of the hindrances you develop insight and concentration together in a very useful way which can then be further applied during access concentration and both qualities can be further refined in the same kind of mutually supportive way.
From where I am you're talking about taking the hindrances themselves as the object. I do, of course, do this to a certain extent, focussing on desire, aversion, sloth, etc, but perhaps I'm not paying enough interested attention to them...

Metta
Mike
While I have been mentioning at every opportunity lately that I think the hindrances should receive more considered attention all around I am not suggesting that the subject hasn't already been well treated. I suspect that we all overlook the significance of the hindrances for a while for what are later seen retrospectively as pretty obvious reasons. The hindrances will continue to arise for all of us and force the issue. So, no worries.

I am sort of advocating observing with more attention to the hindrances but I am not willing to go so far as to suggest that they should become the theme of meditation or that concern over the presence of the hindrances should predominate our thinking. I think that without the true theme, be it the breath or ongoing mindful awareness of the present conditions or what have you, without the true theme and the appropriate right effort the hindrances will lack the proper context for the right kind of insights. The actual theme and our right efforts are opposed by the hindrances and it is in this dynamic environment of harmonious and disharmonious conditions that we discover what supports the development of our wholesome and beneficial efforts and what opposes these efforts and why; and that is what leads to our efforts becoming increasingly effective.

So in this context the hindrances are there to teach us how to overcome them, they pose a challenge to our efforts to better understand our makeup and to alter it. In facing up to the challenge we need to be well equipped by our teachings and teachers and to see the benefits well enough to undertake the work with energy and joy. This would be preferable to seeing the hindrances as entirely useless and oppressive but there is no need to elevate the significance of the hindrances beyond the place they hold now.

What I would like to see is a more comprehensive treatment of the subject that would tie together the skillful ways to observe the nature of the hindrances, observe the causes of the hindrances, observe the causes for the overcoming of the hindrances, the many related techniques for attending and opposing and why or why not these would be suitable or appropriate at a given moment. I think there is quite a lot to this and that the subject is almost as complex as the progress of insight which usually begins where overcoming the hindrances ends. I think this would save a lot of reinventing the wheel that we all usually have to do and often quite early on. I think if we had a good overview of both this progression of overcoming the hindrances and the progress of insight we would begin to see how a deficiency or a proficiency in the progression of insights in overcoming the hindrances then has an impact on the efficacy and expediently of the progress of insight.
But whoever walking, standing, sitting, or lying down overcomes thought, delighting in the stilling of thought: he's capable, a monk like this, of touching superlative self-awakening. § 110. {Iti 4.11; Iti 115}
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