Paticcasamuppada

[Sunrise]

Is birth here physical birth or mental (the birth of the "I"). What do you think?

[PeterB]

Again with the " mental "....

Anyway..... either model works. Starting with Ignorance and Contact...certainly paticcasamuppada does not need to commence with physical birth as an infant to function as an explanation of the arising of phenomena ( see Buddhadasa ) In fact Buddhadasa says that to view paticcasamuppada as relating simply to physical birth is to miss its true import.

[Sunrise]

Again with the " mental "....

Anyway..... either model works. Starting with Ignorance and Contact...certainly paticcasamuppada does not need to commence with physical birth as an infant to function as an explanation of the arising of phenomena ( see Buddhadasa ) In fact Buddhadasa says that to view paticcasamuppada as relating simply to physical birth is to miss its true import.

What's so confusing about the mental thing? BY mental I mean product of the mind.

I have read the Buddhadasa's essay. Could you please explain the other model to me?

[PeterB]

Explain " mind " to me Sunrise..Using Buddhist terminology.

[Sunrise]

OK. I think mind is what does the thinking, forming ideas, labeling, building up perceptions. You could say it is citta or mind. Mind is integrated with the physical body like the brain and the nerves system. For example, if there is no brain then there will probably be no mind. It's another sense base like the eye, ear etc. When a mind object (like a though) make contact with the mind (the mechanism used to think) this cognition is what we call mind-consciousness.

[PeterB]

There is thinking, labelling, forming ideas, etc etc...does something DO them ?

[Sunrise]

Eye is there. It makes contact with a tree. Does someone do the seeing? Nope

Eye consciousness is there. What recognizes the tree as a pine tree? In the mind. Does someone do the recognizing? Nope

[PeterB]

In the what ?
There is seeing. There is consciousness. There are cognitions. Is there an entity or sub entity that is seeing, or is conscious or is having cognitions ?

[Lombardi4]

And what, bhikkhus, is birth? The birth of the various beings into the various orders of beings, their being born, descent (into the womb), production (abhinibbatti= rebirth), the manifestation of the aggregates, the obtaining of the sense bases. This is called birth." The meaning of the term `various orders of beings', is fully brought out by a passage in another sutta specifically dealing with Dependent Origination, the Mahanidana Sutta (DN 15): "With birth as condition there is aging and death. How that is so, Ananda, should be understood in this way. If there were absolutely and utterly no birth of any kind anywhere - that is, of gods into the state of gods, of celestials into the state of celestials, of spirits, demons, human beings, quadrupeds, winged creatures, reptiles, each into their own state - if there were no birth of beings, of any sort into any state, then, in the complete absence of birth, with the cessation of birth, would aging and death be discerned?" "Certainly not, venerable sir."3 Again, it is quite clear here that birth means what we would normally consider it to be: the arising in the human realm of a being in the womb.

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[PeterB]

Well Stefan has kindly provided the other model Sunrise.

[Sunrise]

In the what ?
There is seeing. There is consciousness. There are cognitions. Is there an entity or sub entity that is seeing, or is conscious or is having cognitions ?

If you are asking about an entity that does the seeing, I already said there is no self that sees or thinks.

[Sunrise]

Well Stefan has kindly provided the other model Sunrise.

Great. Thanks Stefan.

Peter why don't you explain the mind to me please? It is easier than the Q&A session don't you think ?

[Sunrise]

Is there an entity or sub entity that is seeing, or is conscious or is having cognitions ?

Oh I get what you ask. Well maybe there is an entity. The nerves system, the memory cells in the brain, the complex neural networks in the brain and the awareness created by the functioning of these all together can be thought of as the mind don't you think? I cannot give a better answer as I am not a brain specialist but I guess you get the picture yeah?

[PeterB]

The point I am trying to make Sunrise is that the" mind " is a construct that comes from western concepts. If we try to grasp what it means it slips through our fingers.
There is perception, there are cognitions and so on.

[Jason]

Is birth here physical birth or mental (the birth of the "I"). What do you think?

It can actually be both, although I think the latter one is more useful to the actual practice since it's here and now that the work has to be done.