Sorry, but I'm not a big fan of answering hyperbolic hypotheticals. Same reason I left the one about Hitler untouched.Annapurna wrote:I know the realms can be seen as metaphorical descriptions of mental states, and let's assume that is all we got, then what if a mass murderer doesn't ever dwell 'in hell', before he dies, because he doesn't even get detected? What if all he ever does is rejoice in his crimes in his memory but never fear and regret?
Would he have escaped kamma then, if there is only one life...?
Think perhaps of the Black Dahlia. He never went to jail for it. What if he never regretted, never felt "hellish" about it?
What do you think?
Moment to moment rebirth
Re: Moment to moment rebirth
"Sabbe dhamma nalam abhinivesaya" (AN 7.58).
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- retrofuturist
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Re: Moment to moment rebirth
OK.... OK....
Metta,
Retro.
Metta,
Retro.
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
- dhamma_spoon
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Re: Moment to moment rebirth
Sheaps -5heaps wrote:a thing doesnt have the power to endure for a second moment because it's dependent upon causes and conditions, and those causes and conditions are constantly changing.
on the other hand its not as though you are bob in one moment and then jim in the next.. there is still some sort of continuation possible whilst adhering to the above law of dependent arising. therefore its not entirely correct to say you die each moment, because then it would mean bob somehow became jim, when really its still just bob there. in fact theres some kind of truth about bob that youre trying to find and you ruin it by just saying that bob becomes jim. bob becomes jim is not profound.
Continuity is the most important missing link in most discussions so far. Thank you for reminding us about it.
The 'death' and 'rebirth' in every moment is just a logical deduction and extrapolation of the original dependent origination (Paticcasamuppada) Teachings in the Suttanta Pitaka. In my sincere opinion such extrapolation is not wrong, although it is not necessary for the understanding of the Four Noble Truths.
Sincerely,
Tep
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A soup spoon does not know the taste of the soup.
A dhamma spoon does not know the taste of the Dhamma!
A dhamma spoon does not know the taste of the Dhamma!
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Re: Moment to moment rebirth
But what is it that is reborn in every moment?dhamma_spoon wrote:The 'death' and 'rebirth' in every moment is just a logical deduction and extrapolation of the original dependent origination (Paticcasamuppada) Teachings in the Suttanta Pitaka.
P
Buddha save me from new-agers!
Re: Moment to moment rebirth
Nothing is reborn. Every moment, every situation is unique, even when we experience some recognition. Nothing appears which has appeared before. All there are to be found are conditions which are the product of conditions.porpoise wrote:But what is it that is reborn in every moment?dhamma_spoon wrote:The 'death' and 'rebirth' in every moment is just a logical deduction and extrapolation of the original dependent origination (Paticcasamuppada) Teachings in the Suttanta Pitaka.
P
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Re: Moment to moment rebirth
Sounds good to me.Shonin wrote: Nothing is reborn. ... All there are to be found are conditions which are the product of conditions.
P
Buddha save me from new-agers!
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Re: Moment to moment rebirth
Hi, TMing -TMingyur wrote:"Moment to moment rebirth" does not appear to be a consistent expression.
Is moment meant to negate "continuum" (or "life")?
If yes, neither is there a "continuum" (i.e. "life") that can be perceived nor is there a "moment" that can be perceived. But both, a "continuum" (i.e. "life") and a "moment" can be conceptually constructed and thus are within the range of conventional language. So why prefer "moment" to "life" if both are equally invalid (or conventionally valid)?
"re-birth" implies being "born again" but when did the preceding birth take place if "moment" is intended to negate "continuum" (i.e. "life")?
Kind regards
I like the profound statement you rightly made about three important ideas underlying the Dependent Origination principle :
Continuity/Life (or being, bhava); Moment(khana); Rebirth(patisandhi),
and you logically prove that they are "conceptually constructs" that blend together.
I hope I understand you correctly.
Truly,
Tep
----
A soup spoon does not know the taste of the soup.
A dhamma spoon does not know the taste of the Dhamma!
A dhamma spoon does not know the taste of the Dhamma!
Re: Moment to moment rebirth
porpoise wrote:dhamma_spoon wrote:
But what is it that is reborn in every moment?
P
Atta (self)
.
Re: Moment to moment rebirth
You Aloka are naughty...
- dhamma_spoon
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Re: Moment to moment rebirth
Hi Porpoise, Shonin -porpoise wrote:Sounds good to me.Shonin wrote: Nothing is reborn. ... All there are to be found are conditions which are the product of conditions.
P
Dhamma_spoon: "The 'death' and 'rebirth' in every moment is just a logical deduction and extrapolation of the original dependent origination (Paticcasamuppada) Teachings in the Suttanta Pitaka." ...
Porpoise: "But what is it that is reborn in every moment?
Shoin: "Nothing is reborn. Every moment, every situation is unique, even when we experience some recognition. Nothing appears which has appeared before. All there are to be found are conditions which are the product of conditions.
And Porpoise agreed.
......................
"Rebirth" is the starting/beginning of the next life (that ends with next death). Thus the term "reborn" or "rebirth" implies continuity of birth-and-death cycle [samsara] that is defined by continuous stream of kamma and results of kamma. At the moment of a death, given that cessation of old kamma has not yet occurred, rebirth is unavoidable. Thus I also agree with Shonin that "nothing is reborn" -- rebirth/reborn is just the result of kammic momentum which we see as "continuity".
Did I make sense to you?
Tep
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A soup spoon does not know the taste of the soup.
A dhamma spoon does not know the taste of the Dhamma!
A dhamma spoon does not know the taste of the Dhamma!
Re: Moment to moment rebirth
That stands even if physical birth and death are not factored in.
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Re: Moment to moment rebirth
Hi, Aloka --Aloka wrote:porpoise wrote:dhamma_spoon wrote:
But what is it that is reborn in every moment?
P
Atta (self)
.
You don't mean the kind of atta that is permanent, do you?
A soup spoon does not know the taste of the soup.
A dhamma spoon does not know the taste of the Dhamma!
A dhamma spoon does not know the taste of the Dhamma!
Re: Moment to moment rebirth
PeterB wrote:Anna if you wanted ONLY Jason to reply you should have made that clear...there is of course no guarantee that others would not have anyway. Such are the ways of Internet forums.
As to your retrospective editing you have a long history of it.
Which is why I and others when you show signs of losing equanimity over a given issue developed the habit of quoting your posts in reply in full.
Finally and I realise that you did not address this to me..I suspect that part of the problem here is that you do understand the term agnostic. It does not mean scepticism or indecision. It is a positive leaving aside of cleaving to a fixed position, It is to say " I dont know" not because of a lack of factual detail or because an unfortunate kammic inheritance has rendered one unable to understand the issues. It is to acknowledge that the issues are subtle and not always capable of being rendered into modern languages without distortion.
Which is why Ajahn Sumedho and before him Ajahn Chah would not be drawn on such issues.
I am sure that they have/or had their views. But they see that any view they give will be divisive.
I said it here:Anna if you wanted ONLY Jason to reply you should have made that clear
I quoted him and wanted to discuss his points with him. Not that you reply for him.PS: I would like to get a reply from Jason.
Such is the way of some people.there is of course no guarantee that others would not have anyway. Such are the ways of Internet forums.
I, as a non-Native speaker, edit grammar mistakes a lot, but hardly ever content.As to your retrospective editing you have a long history of it.
Who's so angry he goes ad hominem?when you show signs of losing equanimity
Which is what I always do, out of respect for the poster, so that a singled out quote can easily be read in context.developed the habit of quoting your posts in reply in full.
.I suspect that part of the problem here is that you do understand the term agnostic. It does not mean scepticism or indecision.....
I think you need to edit your little Freudian slip. You wanted to say: "You don't understand the term agnostic", but rest assured that academics know such terms, also in Germany.
A g n o s t i s c h .
ALMOST the same word. And same meaning!
Last edited by Annapurna on Sun Aug 01, 2010 1:51 pm, edited 3 times in total.
- dhamma_spoon
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Re: Moment to moment rebirth
Yes, and that's the beauty of this concept.PeterB wrote:That stands even if physical birth and death are not factored in.
Tep
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A soup spoon does not know the taste of the soup.
A dhamma spoon does not know the taste of the Dhamma!
A dhamma spoon does not know the taste of the Dhamma!
Re: Moment to moment rebirth
Tep I have to ask...do you know that this image means "to make trouble" ?
the emoticon comes from an expression in English " stirring it " meaning to make mischief .
If that IS what you mean then OK... Nothing wrong with a bit of mischief.
the emoticon comes from an expression in English " stirring it " meaning to make mischief .
If that IS what you mean then OK... Nothing wrong with a bit of mischief.