porpoise wrote:Is a belief in rebirth necessary for effective practice of the 8-fold path? I don't see that it is but would be interested in your views.
P
No, but it helps.
porpoise wrote:Is a belief in rebirth necessary for effective practice of the 8-fold path? I don't see that it is but would be interested in your views.
P
so does that mean I have to stick to the views of the majority of memers and not rock the boat? ...follow the party line...?PeterB wrote:I respect that this is your view fabianfred. It is a topic that is aired frequently on this forum as you will discover...and you will find that there are a number of views on the subject.
It might save you time if I suggest that you google the thoughts of Ajahn Buddhadasa on this subject, and also the ideas of Stephen Batchelor.
You may of course disagree with both of them, but they have influenced directly or indirectly many of the members of this forum.
Being acquainted with their thought, if you are not already, will give you a clearer idea where a proportion of members are coming from.
Not at all. But as Peter says, "Being acquainted with their thought, if you are not already, will give you a clearer idea where a proportion of members are coming from". No more, no less.fabianfred wrote:so does that mean I have to stick to the views of the majority of memers and not rock the boat? ...follow the party line...?
In my opinion It really depends on what you mean by "effective".porpoise wrote:Is a belief in rebirth necessary for effective practice of the 8-fold path? I don't see that it is but would be interested in your views.
P
I see no reason Rui Sousa why in theory all that should not be possible in this lifetime.Rui Sousa wrote:In my opinion It really depends on what you mean by "effective".porpoise wrote:Is a belief in rebirth necessary for effective practice of the 8-fold path? I don't see that it is but would be interested in your views.
P
For the practice to have a positive effect in your life, here and now, I would say no. By developing the eight aspects of the path you will experience many beneficial effects. For the practice to be fully effective, i.e. allow you to experience Nibbana at a certain level, I believe it is necessary as it fits into the development of Right View, understanding kamma and how beings arise and cease to exist.
You don't know how bad my memory is.adeh wrote:That would seem to be a logical conclusion......I doubt that remembering every house you've lived in in this lifetime could be considered a fruit of the ascetic life.....
All forums need boat-rockers.fabianfred wrote:so does that mean I have to stick to the views of the majority of memers and not rock the boat? ...follow the party line...?
Good point about Right View. I usually think about it in terms of gaining insight into the Four Noble Truths.Rui Sousa wrote:....I believe it is necessary as it fits into the development of Right View, understanding kamma and how beings arise and cease to exist.
I think it is possible in this lifetime to be released from suffering. And that you can look at dependent origination in one, or three, lifetime frame.PeterB wrote:I see no reason Rui Sousa why in theory all that should not be possible in this lifetime.Rui Sousa wrote:In my opinion It really depends on what you mean by "effective".porpoise wrote:Is a belief in rebirth necessary for effective practice of the 8-fold path? I don't see that it is but would be interested in your views.
P
For the practice to have a positive effect in your life, here and now, I would say no. By developing the eight aspects of the path you will experience many beneficial effects. For the practice to be fully effective, i.e. allow you to experience Nibbana at a certain level, I believe it is necessary as it fits into the development of Right View, understanding kamma and how beings arise and cease to exist.
"The blood you have shed when, being water buffaloes, you had your water buffalo-heads cut off... when, being rams, you had your ram-heads cut off... when, being goats, you had your goat-heads cut off... when, being deer, you had your deer-heads cut off... when, being chickens, you had your chicken-heads cut off... when, being pigs, you had your pig-heads cut off: Long has this been greater than the water in the four great oceans.
"The blood you have shed when, arrested as thieves plundering villages, you had your heads cut off... when, arrested as highway thieves, you had your heads cut off... when, arrested as adulterers, you had your heads cut off: Long has this been greater than the water in the four great oceans.
"Why is that? From an inconceivable beginning comes transmigration. A beginning point is not evident, though beings hindered by ignorance and fettered by craving are transmigrating & wandering on. Long have you thus experienced stress, experienced pain, experienced loss, swelling the cemeteries — enough to become disenchanted with all fabrications, enough to become dispassionate, enough to be released."
That is what the Blessed One said. Gratified, the monks delighted in the Blessed One's words. And while this explanation was being given, the minds of the thirty monks from Pava — through lack of clinging — were released from fermentations.
This type of view is very subtle, and I hate it when I feel like I have to point it out... because I really don't want to sound like a jerk, or a nitpicker.The concept of rebirth explains to me the things that "need" answering in the world, such as why some people are born rich, some poor, some healthy, some diseased, etc.; it gives "fairness" and "balance" when we look at a world that seems "not fair" and "not balanced". It answers all the why's.
I like the idea, but as I have no proof of it, it could be a whopping load of horse-shit and when I die, my consciousness may just end there and I may become a big wad of dust. That's okay too, because I won't know a thing.
Pascal's Wager have always struck me as insincere. I don't think it's really a good quality to have (or keep) while practicing the Dhamma. Faith is a good thing... but it depends on what kind it is.We have what's called Pascal's Wager here in the West: Pascal theorized that there are two options; worship Jesus or not. If you do, and it turns out that's the correct answer, you win and gain heaven. If you don't, you burn in hell for eternity. If you do and there's no truth to Christiany, so what, you haven't lost; if you don't, then you still haven't lost. So the best option is to go with Jesus to be on the safe side.
I would wager Pascal's Wager in Buddhism would be better safe than sorry, trust the Dhamma and assume/prepare for the next life, just in case. But I'm not much for Mr. Pascal.
Hi Beeblebrox! Huge Adam's fan by the way. Thanks for your response. I must have come across wrong. I didn't mean to imply that I was a nihilist.beeblebrox wrote:This type of view is very subtle, and I hate it when I feel like I have to point it out... because I really don't want to sound like a jerk, or a nitpicker.I like the idea, but as I have no proof of it, it could be a whopping load of horse-shit and when I die, my consciousness may just end there and I may become a big wad of dust. That's okay too, because I won't know a thing.
I think it's actually closet nihilism. It's similar to saying that if having only one life is true, then it would make everything pointless... so that is why you believe otherwise. You believe that there are rebirths, because you basically admit that you would be a nihilist otherwise.
So... I think it's always good idea to be careful about kind of what views you have, by analyzing them, such as why you have them, where they come from, etc. This is what makes the Dhamma difficult.
I agree. I just posted for illustrative purposes.Pascal's Wager have always struck me as insincere. /quote]We have what's called Pascal's Wager here in the West: Pascal theorized that there are two options; worship Jesus or not. If you do, and it turns out that's the correct answer, you win and gain heaven. If you don't, you burn in hell for eternity. If you do and there's no truth to Christiany, so what, you haven't lost; if you don't, then you still haven't lost. So the best option is to go with Jesus to be on the safe side.
I would wager Pascal's Wager in Buddhism would be better safe than sorry, trust the Dhamma and assume/prepare for the next life, just in case. But I'm not much for Mr. Pascal.
Me too. And wouldn't Jesus know?
I don't think it's really a good quality to have (or keep) while practicing the Dhamma. Faith is a good thing... but it depends on what kind it is.