Nondualism

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
Shonin
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Re: Nondualism

Post by Shonin »

mikenz66 wrote:Thanks. I don't find it helpful to read too much philosophy into such things as non-duality, the Abhidharma projects, or the Suttas for that matter, for the reasons expressed in the extract I posted.
Well quite. We need language to communicate about dhamma. Theoretical frameworks can be very useful maps. Some philosophical debate can be helpful. However, when it stops being about experience and becomes intellectualisation for its own sake - especially intellectualisation about ontology/metaphysics then we've gone off-track as I see it. On the other hand, some dhamma (and dharma) can sound as if it's metaphysical when really it's a description of the nature of experienced phenomena.
Shonin
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Re: Nondualism

Post by Shonin »

tiltbillings wrote:
jcsuperstar wrote:the reasons for aversion to nondual ideology as i've seen it is that people who buy into it usually try to make everything fit into a nondual paradigm and a lot of the time use it as some reason to never take a real stance on anything and dismiss morality.
And if you do not agree with the non-dualist, you are being ~ GASP!! ~ dualistic, making non-dualism into the most dualistic approach ever. A lot of Zen wannabees and Zen shouldknowbetters step into this and track it all around, smelling up the place (and they are not the only Mahayanists who do this). I tried to look at this issue here http://dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f= ... aya#p15465" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; but it did not go very well, and no one got Guenther's point in the quote in the linked msg.

It may be that "non-dual" can be very carefully defined so as to avoid the pitfalls. That would be good, and as I said, once that is done the word non-dual should be avoided like the plague.
Broadly I agree - although other Buddhist concepts are open to metaphysical reification and misunderstanding too. I'm not even sure if 'Non-duality' can play any meaningful role in philosophical discourse, as to have a meaning it would have to be contrasted with something else. Most usefully I think it is a word that refers to a mode of experience.
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mikenz66
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Re: Nondualism

Post by mikenz66 »

As I've said before, I have little interest in turning Suttas, Abhidhamma, or Emptiness into philosophy. However, could I take the opportunity in the context of this thread to ask whether Ñāṇa/Geoff's enlistment of Ven. Ñāṇananda in support of his non-dual vision is an accurate representation of Ven. Ñāṇananda's views, or selective quoting?

Mike

http://dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f= ... =40#p72889" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
pt1 wrote:
retrofuturist wrote:
pt1 wrote:Afaik, concepts or aspects of concepts are not said to fall under any aggregates or outside them because they are said to be illusory.
All aggregates (aspects of experience) are equally illusory.
This, I was told, is more in line with a Mahayana teaching or even a Hindu Maya thing possibly. E.g. I think Dexing was recently saying pretty much the same thing in http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f=16&t=1979" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; - that both concepts and aggregates are illusory. From what I gathered, that's a view which is not particularly representative of neither Mahayana nor Theravada. In the suttas on the other hand, it's usually said that aggregates are anatta, anicca and dukkha (in particular in reference to their arising and ceasing). To me that doesn't equate aggregates to illusions, but rather says that aggregates can be experienced to arise and cease through insight, and at that instance they're understood as anatta, anicca and dukkha.
Ñāṇa wrote: In Seeing Through: A Guide to Insight Meditation, Ven. Ñāṇananda explains the development of vipassanā without any reliance on the awkward two truths theory:
...
  • Now, if perception is a mirage, in order to get at this mirage nature, one has to be content with attending simply as 'seeing, seeing'. One way or the other it is just a seeing or just a hearing. Thereby he stops short at the bare awareness. He stops short at the bare seeing, bare hearing, bare feeling and bare thinking. He does not grant it an object status. He does not cognize it as an object existing in the world. He does not give it a name. The purpose of this method of mental noting or attending, is the eradication of the conceit 'AM', which the meditator has to accomplish so a to attain release. The conceit 'AM' is 'asmi-māna'.
    ...
    So the purpose of this training in insight is that release from perception. Until full detachment with regard to perception sets in, knotting will go on. A sort of disgust or disenchantment has to occur for detachment to set in. With the gradual refinement of the mode of mental noting, one is able to eliminate these knots brought about by perception.
It seems possible that some of the abhidhammika proponents of the two truth theory may forget to take into account that the entire forward-order sequence of DO is a process of deluded cognition. The whole game needs to be shut down. In practice, analyzing deluded cognition in terms of real/unreal just prolongs the game.
http://dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f= ... 772#p77133" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Ñāṇa wrote: ...
Here we get a whiff of why the Mahāyāna Mādhyamaka and Yogācāra systems are so objectionable to Ven. Bodhi’s realist abhidhammika sensibilities. For Ven. Bodhi nibbāna is necessarily an “ultimate reality” independent of cognition. Elsewhere Ven. Bodhi expands on his view of this matter, which further demonstrates a conflation of epistemology and ontology:
  • Nibbana is not only the destruction of defilements and the end of samsara but a reality transcendent to the entire world of mundane experience, a reality transcendent to all the realms of phenomenal existence....

    [T]he Nibbana element remains the same, no matter whether many or few people attain Nibbana....

    Nibbana is an actual reality and not the mere destruction of defilements or the cessation of existence. Nibbana is unconditioned, without any origination and is timeless.
Remedying this confusion and conflation of the epistemological and ontological was one of Nāgārjuna’s primary concerns. And not only Nāgārjuna. Throughout The Mind Stilled as well as his other writings, Ven. Ñāṇananda has addressed this issue. For example:
  • To project Nibbāna into a distance and to hope that craving will be destroyed only on seeing it, is something like trying to build a staircase to a palace one cannot yet see. In fact this is a simile which the Buddha had used in his criticism of the Brahmin's point of view....

    Lust, hate, delusion - all these are fires. Therefore Nibbāna may be best rendered by the word extinction. When once the fires are extinguished, what more is needed? But unfortunately Venerable Buddhaghosa was not prepared to appreciate this point of view. In his Visuddhimagga as well as in the commentaries Sāratthappakāsinī and Sammohavinodanī, he gives a long discussion on Nibbāna in the form of an argument with an imaginary heretic. Some of his arguments are not in keeping with either the letter or the spirit of the Dhamma.

    First of all he gets the heretic to put forward the idea that the destruction of lust, hate and delusion is Nibbāna. Actually the heretic is simply quoting the Buddha word, for in the Nibbānasutta of the Asaṅkhatasaṃyutta the destruction of lust, hate and delusion is called Nibbāna: Rāgakkhayo, dosakkhayo, mohakkhayo - idaṃ vuccati nibbānaṃ.

    The words rāgakkhaya, dosakkhaya and mohakkhaya together form a synonym of Nibbāna, but the commentator interprets it as three synonyms. Then he argues out with the imaginary heretic that if Nibbāna is the extinguishing of lust it is something common even to the animals, for they also extinguish their fires of lust through enjoyment of the corresponding objects of sense. This argument ignores the deeper sense of the word extinction, as it is found in the Dhamma....

    It seems that the deeper implications of the word Nibbāna have been obscured by a set of arguments which are rather misleading....

    More often than otherwise, commentarial interpretations of Nibbāna leave room for some subtle craving for existence, bhavataṇhā.... It conjures up a place where there is no sun and no moon, a place that is not a place. Such confounding trends have crept in probably due to the very depth of this Dhamma.
PeterB
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Re: Nondualism

Post by PeterB »

Shonin wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:
jcsuperstar wrote:the reasons for aversion to nondual ideology as i've seen it is that people who buy into it usually try to make everything fit into a nondual paradigm and a lot of the time use it as some reason to never take a real stance on anything and dismiss morality.
And if you do not agree with the non-dualist, you are being ~ GASP!! ~ dualistic, making non-dualism into the most dualistic approach ever. A lot of Zen wannabees and Zen shouldknowbetters step into this and track it all around, smelling up the place (and they are not the only Mahayanists who do this). I tried to look at this issue here http://dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f= ... aya#p15465" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; but it did not go very well, and no one got Guenther's point in the quote in the linked msg.

It may be that "non-dual" can be very carefully defined so as to avoid the pitfalls. That would be good, and as I said, once that is done the word non-dual should be avoided like the plague.
Broadly I agree - although other Buddhist concepts are open to metaphysical reification and misunderstanding too. I'm not even sure if 'Non-duality' can play any meaningful role in philosophical discourse, as to have a meaning it would have to be contrasted with something else. Most usefully I think it is a word that refers to a mode of experience.
Its exactly as a mode of experience that it is pernicious. I am not altogether joking when I say that imo the seeking of non dual experience is more a breach of the precepts than the occasional glass of lager.
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tiltbillings
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Re: Nondualism

Post by tiltbillings »

PeterB wrote: Its exactly as a mode of experience that it is pernicious. I am not altogether joking when I say that imo the seeking of non dual experience is more a breach of the precepts than the occasional glass of lager.
Which is why we need to very carefully define what exactly we mean by non-dual experience.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
Shonin
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Re: Nondualism

Post by Shonin »

PeterB wrote:Its exactly as a mode of experience that it is pernicious. I am not altogether joking when I say that imo the seeking of non dual experience is more a breach of the precepts than the occasional glass of lager.
You're entitled to your opinion, although I'm not sure that you can justify it. I've heard Christians say equivalent things about Nibbana. There is always further to go, but as I see it now, a moment of 'nonduality' and a moment of 'nibbana' are the same ie. the absence of delusion, craving and aversion, even if it is entirely inevitable that such a suggestion would be received with less than open arms in a Theravada forum.

Are you speaking from experience?
Last edited by Shonin on Tue Aug 03, 2010 11:10 am, edited 1 time in total.
PeterB
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Re: Nondualism

Post by PeterB »

I rest my case. And refer you to...
Nyana
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Re: Nondualism

Post by Nyana »

mikenz66 wrote:However, could I take the opportunity in the context of this thread to ask whether Ñāṇa/Geoff's enlistment of Ven. Ñāṇananda in support of his non-dual vision is an accurate representation of Ven. Ñāṇananda's views, or selective quoting?
Hi Mike,

You could. But first of all you would have to establish that I hold a "non-dual vision," whatever that is???

All the best,

Geoff
PeterB
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Re: Nondualism

Post by PeterB »

This...
PeterB wrote:Some years ago out of interest I went to a " Satsang" with a teacher of non duality. At one point he asked me to sit opposite him and he closed his eyes. I sat there.
I am a very bad hypnotism subject and quick to spot auto suggestion and the like,so I expected nothing,
and then I got it...All subject and object disappeared. I was in a state of non duality.
It was very joyful and I felt a sense of great peace.
It lasted for several hours, in fact until I was at the station on the way home.
At first I wanted to repeat the experience so I went to the next public teaching .....nothing.
After some time and after a lot of refection I reached a couple of conclusions ;
I think that the teacher probably had a low degree of iddhis/siddhis. I dont think it was simply suggestion. It was too strong an experience.
That the experience was worth absolutely nothing, and was not worth pursuing. It was transient. It was not the end of dukkha. It was in fact no different from a chemically induced experience.
And more importantly..it was in the end not wholesome or indicative of realisation. It was in fact a pleasant variety of alienation...That if one achieved the state permanently one would end up as alienated as those Gurus with their blissed out stoned eyes.
That there are are no short cuts. That the path of feedom from suffering was not a quick trip, or vacation from the everyday. That it was a process to be worked through on a daily basis hour by hour in all moods and all circumstances. That it was all contained in the 8FP.
Nyana
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Re: Nondualism

Post by Nyana »

MattJ wrote: For example, nondual emptiness appears to me a direct result of seeing the classic three characteristics of Buddhism. In Madhyamika Buddhism, emptiness means empty of inherent, independent existence. How is this contradicted by the suttas? It seems to me that this is applying the 3 marks of existence to things, and not just people.
Hi Matt & all,

Mādhyamaka arose as a critique and corrective of Sarvāstivāda tenets. Because the Sarvāstivāda was a Nikāya school which didn’t accept the authority of any non-canonical sūtra-s, the Indian mādhyamika authors cited canonical statements which are common to the discourses of the Sanskrit āgama-s and the Pāḷi nikāya-s as scriptural support for their critiques. Their critique was never meant to refute the Pāḷi sutta-s and was never intended as a critique of the early Pāḷi Abhidhamma Piṭaka.

As for how the two Indian Mahāyāna traditions (i.e. Mādhyamaka and Yogācāra) can be misrepresented there is a review of Ven. Bodhi's paper Dhamma and Non-duality in this post.

A brief comparison of a few verses from Nāgārjuna with the Pāḷi Nikāya-s can be found in this post.

And here are some excerpts from the canonical Paṭisambhidāmagga Suññakathā (Khuddakanikāya):
  • What is emptiness in [relation to] change?

    Born, form is empty of self-nature (sabhāvena suñña); disappeared, form is both changed and empty.

    Born, feeling is empty of self-nature; disappeared, feeling is both changed and empty.

    Born, perception is empty of self-nature; disappeared, perception is both changed and empty.

    Born, fabrications are empty of self-nature; disappeared, fabrications are both changed and empty.

    Born, consciousness is empty of self-nature; disappeared, it is both changed and empty.

    Born, the eye is empty ... the ear is empty ... the nose is empty ... the tongue is empty ... the body is empty of self-nature; disappeared, it is both changed and empty.

    Born, forms are empty ... sounds are empty ... odors are empty ... flavors are empty ... tactile sensations are empty of self-nature; disappeared, they are both changed and empty.

    Born, visual consciousness is empty ... auditory consciousness is empty ... olfactory consciousness is empty ... gustatory consciousness is empty ... tactile consciousness is empty ... mental consciousness is empty of self-nature; disappeared, it is both changed and empty.

    Born, eye-contact is empty ... ear-contact is empty ... nose-contact is empty ... tongue-contact is empty ... body-contact is empty ... mind-contact is empty of self-nature; disappeared, it is both changed and empty.

    Born, feeling born of eye-contact is empty ... feeling born of ear-contact is empty ... feeling born of nose-contact is empty ... feeling born of tongue-contact is empty ... feeling born of body-contact is empty ... feeling born of mind-contact is empty of self-nature; disappeared, it is both changed and empty.

    Born, perception of forms is empty ... perception of sounds is empty ... perception of odors is empty ... perception of flavors is empty ... perception of tactile sensations is empty ... perception of mental phenomena is empty of self-nature; disappeared, it is both changed and empty.

    Born, volitional intention pertaining to forms is empty ... volitional intention pertaining to sounds is empty ... volitional intention pertaining to odors is empty ... volitional intention pertaining to flavors is empty ... volitional intention pertaining to tactile sensations is empty ... volitional intention pertaining to mental phenomena is empty of self-nature; disappeared, it is both changed and empty.

    Born, craving for forms is empty ... craving for sounds is empty ... craving for odors is empty ... craving for flavors is empty ... craving for tactile sensations is empty ... craving for mental phenomena is empty of self-nature; disappeared, it is both changed and empty.

    Born, directed thought pertaining to forms is empty ... directed thought pertaining to sounds is empty ... directed thought pertaining to odors is empty ... directed thought pertaining to flavors is empty ... directed thought pertaining to tactile sensations is empty ... directed thought pertaining to mental phenomena is empty of self-nature; disappeared, it is both changed and empty.

    Born, examination pertaining to forms is empty ... examination pertaining to sounds is empty ... examination pertaining to odors is empty ... examination pertaining to flavors is empty ... examination pertaining to tactile sensations is empty ... examination pertaining to mental phenomena is empty of self-nature; disappeared, it is both changed and empty.

    Born, the eye sensory sphere is empty ... the form sensory sphere is empty ... the ear sensory sphere is empty ... the sound sensory sphere is empty ... the nose sensory sphere is empty ... the odor sensory sphere is empty ... the tongue sensory sphere is empty ... the flavor sensory sphere is empty ... the body sensory sphere is empty ... the tactile sensation sensory sphere is empty ... the mind sensory sphere is empty ... the mental phenomena sensory sphere is empty of self-nature; disappeared, it is both changed and empty.

    Born, the eye element is empty ... the form element is empty ... the visual consciousness element is empty ... the ear element is empty ... the sound element is empty ... the auditory consciousness element is empty ... the nose element is empty ... the odor element is empty ... the olfactory consciousness element is empty ... the tongue element is empty ... the flavor element is empty ... the gustatory consciousness element is empty ... the body element is empty ... the tactile sensation element is empty ... the tactile consciousness element is empty ... the mind element is empty ... the mental phenomena element is empty ... the mental consciousness element is empty of self-nature; disappeared, it is both changed and empty.

    Born, the sensual desire element is empty ... the form element is empty ... the formless element is empty of self-nature; disappeared, it is both changed and empty.

    Born, ignorance is empty ... fabrications are empty ... consciousness is empty ... name and form are empty ... the sixfold sensory spheres are empty ... contact is empty ... feeling is empty ... craving is empty ... grasping is empty ... becoming is empty of self-nature; disappeared, it is both changed and empty.

    What is supreme emptiness?

    This dhamma is supreme, this dhamma is superior, this dhamma is excellent: the calming of all fabrications, the release of all acquisitions, the exhaustion of craving, dispassion, cessation, nibbāna. This is supreme emptiness.

    What is internal emptiness?

    Internally the eye is empty of a self or that which belongs to a self or of what is permanent and everlasting and eternal and not subject to change.

    Internally the ear is empty of a self or that which belongs to a self or of what is permanent and everlasting and eternal and not subject to change.

    Internally the nose is empty of a self or that which belongs to a self or of what is permanent and everlasting and eternal and not subject to change.

    Internally the tongue is empty of a self or that which belongs to a self or of what is permanent and everlasting and eternal and not subject to change.

    Internally the body is empty of a self or that which belongs to a self or of what is permanent and everlasting and eternal and not subject to change.

    Internally the mind is empty of a self or that which belongs to a self or of what is permanent and everlasting and eternal and not subject to change.

    This is internal emptiness.

    What is external emptiness?

    Externally form is empty of a self or that which belongs to a self or of what is permanent and everlasting and eternal and not subject to change.

    Externally sound is empty of a self or that which belongs to a self or of what is permanent and everlasting and eternal and not subject to change.

    Externally odor is empty of a self or that which belongs to a self or of what is permanent and everlasting and eternal and not subject to change.

    Externally flavor is empty of a self or that which belongs to a self or of what is permanent and everlasting and eternal and not subject to change.

    Externally tactile sensation is empty of a self or that which belongs to a self or of what is permanent and everlasting and eternal and not subject to change.

    Externally mental phenomena are empty of a self or that which belongs to a self or of what is permanent and everlasting and eternal and not subject to change.

    This is external emptiness.

    What is emptiness both ways?

    Internally the eye and externally form are both empty of a self or that which belongs to a self or of what is permanent and everlasting and eternal and not subject to change.

    Internally the ear and externally sound are both empty of a self or that which belongs to a self or of what is permanent and everlasting and eternal and not subject to change.

    Internally the nose and externally odor are both empty of a self or that which belongs to a self or of what is permanent and everlasting and eternal and not subject to change.

    Internally the tongue and externally flavor are both empty of a self or that which belongs to a self or of what is permanent and everlasting and eternal and not subject to change.

    Internally the body and externally tactile sensation are both empty of a self or that which belongs to a self or of what is permanent and everlasting and eternal and not subject to change.

    Internally the mind and externally mental phenomena are both empty of a self or that which belongs to a self or of what is permanent and everlasting and eternal and not subject to change.

    This is emptiness both ways.

    What is the ultimate meaning (paramattha) of emptiness [as it relates to] all kinds of emptiness, which is the terminating of occurrence in one who is fully aware?

    Here, through renunciation one who is fully aware terminates the occurrence of sensual desire; through nonaggression one who is fully aware terminates the occurrence of aggression; through perception of light one who is fully aware terminates the occurrence of dullness and drowsiness; through nondistraction one who is fully aware terminates the occurrence of agitation; through understanding phenomena one who is fully aware terminates the occurrence of doubt; through knowledge one who is fully aware terminates the occurrence of ignorance; through gladness one who is fully aware terminates the occurrence of boredom.

    Through the first jhāna one who is fully aware terminates the occurrence of the hindrances; through the second jhāna one who is fully aware terminates the occurrence of directed thought and examination; through the third jhāna one who is fully aware terminates the occurrence of rapture; through the fourth jhāna one who is fully aware terminates the occurrence of pleasure; through the attainment of the sphere of infinite space one who is fully aware terminates the occurrence of perceptions of form, perceptions of resistance, and perceptions of diversity; through the attainment of the sphere of infinite consciousness one who is fully aware terminates the occurrence of perception of the sphere of infinite space; through the attainment of the sphere of nothingness one who is fully aware terminates the occurrence of perception of the sphere of infinite consciousness; through the attainment of the sphere of neither-perception-nor-nonperception one who is fully aware terminates the occurrence of perception of the sphere of nothingness.

    Through the contemplation of impermanence one who is fully aware terminates the occurrence of the perception of permanence; through the contemplation of unsatisfactoriness one who is fully aware terminates the occurrence of the perception of satisfactoriness; through the contemplation of not-self one who is fully aware terminates the occurrence of the perception of self; through the contemplation of dispassion one who is fully aware terminates the occurrence of delight; through the contemplation of fading away one who is fully aware terminates the occurrence of greed; through the contemplation of cessation one who is fully aware terminates the occurrence of arising; through the contemplation of relinquishment one who is fully aware terminates the occurrence of grasping; through the contemplation of decay one who is fully aware terminates the occurrence of the perception of compactness; through the contemplation of fall one who is fully aware terminates the occurrence of accumulation; through the contemplation of change one who is fully aware terminates the occurrence of the perception of everlastingness; through the contemplation of signlessness one who is fully aware terminates the occurrence of signs; through the contemplation of desirelessness one who is fully aware terminates the occurrence of desire; through the contemplation of emptiness one who is fully aware terminates the occurrence of misinterpretation; through the clear seeing of phenomena that is higher discernment one who is fully aware terminates the occurrence of misinterpretation due to grasping at a core; through gnosis and seeing one who is fully aware terminates the occurrence of misinterpretation due to delusion; through the contemplation of [the] danger [of fabrications] one who is fully aware terminates the occurrence of misinterpretation due to reliance [on fabrications]; through the contemplation of reflection one who is fully aware terminates the occurrence of non-reflection; through the contemplation of turning away one who is fully aware terminates the occurrence of misinterpretation due to bondage.

    Through the stream-entry path one who is fully aware terminates the occurrence of defilements associated with wrong view; through the once-returner path one who is fully aware terminates the occurrence of gross defilements; through the non-returner path one who is fully aware terminates the occurrence of secondary defilements; through the arahant path one who is fully aware terminates the occurrence of all defilements [i.e. ignorance].

    Or through the nibbāna element (nibbānadhātu) without any grasping remaining for one who is fully aware this occurrence of eye ends and no further occurrence of eye arises; this occurrence of ear ends and no further occurrence of ear arises; this occurrence of nose ends and no further occurrence of nose arises; this occurrence of tongue ends and no further occurrence of tongue arises; this occurrence of body ends and no further occurrence of body arises; this occurrence of mind ends and no further occurrence of mind arises.

    This is the ultimate meaning of emptiness [as it relates to] all kinds of emptiness, which is the terminating of occurrence in one who is fully aware.
All the best,

Geoff
PeterB
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Re: Nondualism

Post by PeterB »

Yup, Bhikkhu Bodhi nailed it just as I thought.
Nyana
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Re: Nondualism

Post by Nyana »

PeterB wrote:Yup, Bhikkhu Bodhi nailed it just as I thought.
Indeed. Nailed a complete misrepresentation of Indian Mahāyāna.
PeterB
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Re: Nondualism

Post by PeterB »

So there.... :rofl:
Shonin
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Re: Nondualism

Post by Shonin »

PeterB wrote:This...
PeterB wrote:Some years ago out of interest I went to a " Satsang" with a teacher of non duality. At one point he asked me to sit opposite him and he closed his eyes. I sat there.
I am a very bad hypnotism subject and quick to spot auto suggestion and the like,so I expected nothing,
and then I got it...All subject and object disappeared. I was in a state of non duality.
It was very joyful and I felt a sense of great peace.
It lasted for several hours, in fact until I was at the station on the way home.
At first I wanted to repeat the experience so I went to the next public teaching .....nothing.
After some time and after a lot of refection I reached a couple of conclusions ;
I think that the teacher probably had a low degree of iddhis/siddhis. I dont think it was simply suggestion. It was too strong an experience.
That the experience was worth absolutely nothing, and was not worth pursuing. It was transient. It was not the end of dukkha. It was in fact no different from a chemically induced experience.
And more importantly..it was in the end not wholesome or indicative of realisation. It was in fact a pleasant variety of alienation...That if one achieved the state permanently one would end up as alienated as those Gurus with their blissed out stoned eyes.
That there are are no short cuts. That the path of feedom from suffering was not a quick trip, or vacation from the everyday. That it was a process to be worked through on a daily basis hour by hour in all moods and all circumstances. That it was all contained in the 8FP.
Thanks for your story. The experience I'm talking about is a temporary end to dukkha, but it is the opposite of alienation since one feels an intimacy with everything and everyone experienced. It is blissful but intensely alert. However, like everything it is impermanent. The base conditioning from which dukkha originates has not gone. An experience like that should not be clung to. No states of bliss or heightened concentration or samadhi or jhana lasts forever. And getting attached to them will generally lead to disappointment. However, in the course of my own practice for example such experiences have occured not infrequently and have had an influence on my life more generally, helping me to loosen my delusions and attachments just a little. The hard work is still ahead. After many such experiences and breakthrough koans passed my teacher's teacher told him 'Another 30 years'. After 30 years his teacher has retired and his new teacher told him 'Another 30 years'. Maturation goes on and on. There may be inspirational glimpses but no shortcuts. Our conditioning itself has to be perceived and let go of, and that is a very gradual process.
PeterB
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Re: Nondualism

Post by PeterB »

I have just quoted one experience chosen because of its odd circumstances. I have plenty of such experiences, another was as a result of meditating with Tai Situ Rinpoche.
..and they are all bullshit..just stuff to be let go of.
The best they can do is offer confirmation that there is more in heaven and earth than your "Idiots Guide To A Level Psychology " tells you.
As Goldstein ( or whoever ) says. " After The Ecstacy, The Laundry ".
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