Sabba Kaaya or Sabbe Kaaya? Passambhayam?

Explore the ancient language of the Tipitaka and Theravāda commentaries
lojong1
Posts: 607
Joined: Sat Dec 26, 2009 2:59 am

Sabba Kaaya or Sabbe Kaaya? Passambhayam?

Post by lojong1 »

a few quick trivia questions to keep me off my toes and you on your bum
:alien:
Are sabba and sabbe the same word different number, i.e.:
sabba = nom. sing.?
sabbe = nom. pl.?
Or does one mean 'whole', the other 'all/every'?
Are both terms used in different versions of anapanasati and satipatthana in different countries/canons?

Can 'passambhayam' mean: [calm/calmed; having calmed; having been calmed; being calm'] instead of ['calming']?
Passive past participal or gerund or something else instead of whatever it usually is translated as?

:reading: :group: :!:
beeblebrox
Posts: 939
Joined: Thu Dec 31, 2009 10:41 pm

Re: Sabba Kaaya or Sabbe Kaaya? Passambhayam?

Post by beeblebrox »

I'm a beginner, but seems like Sabba and Sabbe are the same word, but in different numbers to agree with a noun. So, sabba = whole, and sabbe = all. The whole person (singular), all of the people (plural). Still my guess, though.
User avatar
DNS
Site Admin
Posts: 17187
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 4:15 am
Location: Las Vegas, Nevada, Estados Unidos de América
Contact:

Re: Sabba Kaaya or Sabbe Kaaya? Passambhayam?

Post by DNS »

I am also a beginner at Pali, but think that:

sabbe = one
sabba = all, every
beeblebrox
Posts: 939
Joined: Thu Dec 31, 2009 10:41 pm

Re: Sabba Kaaya or Sabbe Kaaya? Passambhayam?

Post by beeblebrox »

David N. Snyder wrote:I am also a beginner at Pali, but think that:

sabbe = one
sabba = all, every
I'm not sure, but I think they both probably should have a meaning that is consistent (as long as they're read in the same context). Like the following:

Every person. (sabba)
Every people. (sabbe)

All of the person. (sabba)
All of the people. (sabbe)

The whole of a person. (sabba)
The whole of a people. (sabbe)

Etc.
User avatar
yuttadhammo
Posts: 144
Joined: Fri Mar 19, 2010 5:03 pm
Location: Sri Lanka
Contact:

Re: Sabba Kaaya or Sabbe Kaaya? Passambhayam?

Post by yuttadhammo »

lojong1 wrote:a few quick trivia questions to keep me off my toes and you on your bum
:alien:
Are sabba and sabbe the same word different number, i.e.:
sabba = nom. sing.?
sabbe = nom. pl.?
Or does one mean 'whole', the other 'all/every'?
sabba is not a proper Pali form - it is the undeclined form of the pronoun. The only place you would find it is in a compound, e.g.:
sabbabuddhānubhāvena sadā sotthī bhavantu te. (sing)
sabbadānaṃ dhammadānaṃ jināti. (pl)
in which case, it can be either plural or singular, as signified by the noun in the compound.

Perhaps you are thinking of the form "sabbaa" or "sabbā"?

If so, sabbā and sabbe are both pathamaa (nominative) and dutiyaa (accusative) plural, one being masc. and the other feminine:
satañca gandho paṭivātameti, sabbā disā sappuriso pavāyati. (fem.)
ekaṃ nāma kiṃ"? "sabbe sattā āhāraṭṭhitikā
Are both terms used in different versions of anapanasati and satipatthana in different countries/canons?
Maybe I'm missing something, but I'm going to go out on a limb and say that sabba is not used in any canon, except when contracted in a compound; sabbaa and sabbe are used in all, as explained above.
Can 'passambhayam' mean: calm/calmed; having calmed; having been calmed; being calm' instead of 'calming'?
Passive past participal or gerund or something else instead of whatever it usually is translated as?
According to the vinaya commentary:
passambhayaṃ cittasaṅkhāra nti oḷārikaṃ oḷārikaṃ cittasaṅkhāraṃ passambhento, nirodhentoti attho.
passambhayaṃ kāyasaṅkhāraṃ assasissāmi ... pe ... passasissāmīti sikkhatī ti oḷārikaṃ kāyasaṅkhāraṃ passambhento paṭippassambhento nirodhento vūpasamento assasissāmi passasissāmīti sikkhati.
I think passambhaya is a past participle already... meaning "made calm". So: "I will breathe [so that] the bodily formations are calmed"
You can't just "make" it a gerund, though :) That would be passambhetvaa:
pubbe khvāhaṃ, bhante, gelaññe passambhetvā passambhetvā kāyasaṅkhāre viharāmi, sohaṃ samādhiṃ nappaṭilabhāmi.
Best wishes,

Yuttadhammo
lojong1
Posts: 607
Joined: Sat Dec 26, 2009 2:59 am

Re: Sabba Kaaya or Sabbe Kaaya? Passambhayam?

Post by lojong1 »

:thanks:
yuttadhammo wrote:I think passambhaya is a past participle already... meaning "made calm". So: "I will breathe [so that] the bodily formations are calmed"
"

So-- 'Passambhayam kaayasankhaaram passasissaami' might be better translated as: 'The bodily formations [being already] calmed, I shall breathe in;" instead of "I breathe in [while intentionally] calming the bodily formations? :thinking:

[edit: I'm now leaning toward kayasankhara = body fabricator]
Last edited by lojong1 on Fri Aug 20, 2010 10:24 pm, edited 2 times in total.
User avatar
yuttadhammo
Posts: 144
Joined: Fri Mar 19, 2010 5:03 pm
Location: Sri Lanka
Contact:

Re: Sabba Kaaya or Sabbe Kaaya? Passambhayam?

Post by yuttadhammo »

lojong1 wrote:So-- 'Passambhayam kaayasankhaaram passasissaamii' might be better translated as: 'The bodily formations [being already] calmed, I shall breathe in;" instead of "I breathe in [while intentionally] calming the bodily formations? :thinking:
I doubt it... the commentaries prefer the interpretation, "I will breathe making calm the formation of the body (singular, btw)" . Perhaps there is a missing verbal form, eg "karonto":

[aha.m] passambhayam kaayasankhaaram [karonto] passasissaami

Just a guess, I'm not really an expert :)
User avatar
Kare
Posts: 767
Joined: Sun Feb 01, 2009 10:58 am
Location: Norway
Contact:

Re: Sabba Kaaya or Sabbe Kaaya? Passambhayam?

Post by Kare »

lojong1 wrote::thanks:
yuttadhammo wrote:I think passambhaya is a past participle already... meaning "made calm". So: "I will breathe [so that] the bodily formations are calmed"
"

So-- 'Passambhayam kaayasankhaaram passasissaami' might be better translated as: 'The bodily formations [being already] calmed, I shall breathe in;" instead of "I breathe in [while intentionally] calming the bodily formations? :thinking:
I would rather regard "passambhayam" as a present participle, meaning "while calming".
Mettāya,
Kåre
lojong1
Posts: 607
Joined: Sat Dec 26, 2009 2:59 am

Re: Sabba Kaaya or Sabbe Kaaya? Passambhayam?

Post by lojong1 »

Kare wrote:I would rather regard "passambhayam" as a present participle, meaning "while calming".
Because that's what it is in Pali or because that's the usual English wording?
User avatar
Kare
Posts: 767
Joined: Sun Feb 01, 2009 10:58 am
Location: Norway
Contact:

Re: Sabba Kaaya or Sabbe Kaaya? Passambhayam?

Post by Kare »

lojong1 wrote:
Kare wrote:I would rather regard "passambhayam" as a present participle, meaning "while calming".
Because that's what it is in Pali or because that's the usual English wording?
Because that's what it is in Pali.
Mettāya,
Kåre
lojong1
Posts: 607
Joined: Sat Dec 26, 2009 2:59 am

Re: Sabba Kaaya or Sabbe Kaaya? Passambhayam?

Post by lojong1 »

Thanks kare, I'm finding more confirmation of that by googling passambhati. Makes me want to get some proper study material for home--maybe the Pali set Beeblebrox recommended.
beeblebrox
Posts: 939
Joined: Thu Dec 31, 2009 10:41 pm

Re: Sabba Kaaya or Sabbe Kaaya? Passambhayam?

Post by beeblebrox »

lojong1 wrote:Thanks kare, I'm finding more confirmation of that by googling passambhati. Makes me want to get some proper study material for home--maybe the Pali set Beeblebrox recommended.
I probably wouldn't have gotten it if it wasn't for Kare's recommendation. :) By the way, it seems like the set also includes the variations, in brackets... so that's a very nice bonus. I still don't understand most of the Pali words, but I still read anyway to get the feeling of their patterns.

Actually... this morning, I read a line that seems relevant to this thread, from the Saṃyutta Nikāya:
"Na tvaṃ bāle pajānāsi, yathā arahataṃ vaco;
Aniccā sabbasaṅkhārā [sabbe saṅkhārā (sī. syā. kam.)], uppādavadhammino;
Uppajjitvā nirujjhanti, tesaṃ vūpasamo sukho"ti.
PeterB
Posts: 3909
Joined: Tue Feb 17, 2009 12:35 pm

Re: Sabba Kaaya or Sabbe Kaaya? Passambhayam?

Post by PeterB »

Kare wrote:
lojong1 wrote:
Kare wrote:I would rather regard "passambhayam" as a present participle, meaning "while calming".
Because that's what it is in Pali or because that's the usual English wording?
Because that's what it is in Pali.
and because it makes more sense in the process that is being described.
User avatar
Kare
Posts: 767
Joined: Sun Feb 01, 2009 10:58 am
Location: Norway
Contact:

Re: Sabba Kaaya or Sabbe Kaaya? Passambhayam?

Post by Kare »

PeterB wrote:and because it makes more sense in the process that is being described.
The Pali texts usually make good sense. :D
Mettāya,
Kåre
PeterB
Posts: 3909
Joined: Tue Feb 17, 2009 12:35 pm

Re: Sabba Kaaya or Sabbe Kaaya? Passambhayam?

Post by PeterB »

Particularly when approached without subjectivism...and your readings are admirable in that regard Kare.
Post Reply