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Samma samadhi: Sujin Boriharnwanaket - Page 7 - Dhamma Wheel

Samma samadhi: Sujin Boriharnwanaket

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths. What can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
Virgo
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Re: Samma samadhi: Sujin Boriharnwanaket

Postby Virgo » Wed Aug 04, 2010 6:59 am



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tiltbillings
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Re: Samma samadhi: Sujin Boriharnwanaket

Postby tiltbillings » Wed Aug 04, 2010 7:28 am

Geez, Kevin, any reason you would like to give us for blowing off retro's msgs?

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tiltbillings
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Re: Samma samadhi: Sujin Boriharnwanaket

Postby tiltbillings » Wed Aug 04, 2010 7:31 am

What you said: ”You still think the soil can be understood through noting things.”

Context: You said, ”First of all, the soil is still missing.”

My reply: Having done several 3 month retreats, being taught by Mahasi Sayadaw trained teachers, the comment that the soil is is missing is meaningless. The soil is very much part of the teaching that goes on during the retreat within the context of meditation. I did not say, in this context, that the “soil” can be understood through noting things. The clear point of what I did say was that it is a part of an ongoing teaching that is part of the retreat structure.

Now, if you are going to represent what I say, do it accurately and actually address the point made. I know what the VM says, but there is no reason that under the guidance of experienced, knowledgeable teachers of the Mahasi Sayadaw method the teaching should not and cannot not proceed in that manner. And it is certainly not contravened by the suttas.

Your claim that I said: ”You still think the soil can be understood through noting things.” is, in the context, false.

Virgo
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Re: Samma samadhi: Sujin Boriharnwanaket

Postby Virgo » Wed Aug 04, 2010 8:20 am



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tiltbillings
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Re: Samma samadhi: Sujin Boriharnwanaket

Postby tiltbillings » Wed Aug 04, 2010 8:53 am


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Re: Samma samadhi: Sujin Boriharnwanaket

Postby tiltbillings » Wed Aug 04, 2010 8:55 am

Geez, Kevin, any reason you would like to give us for blowing off retro's msgs?

chandrafabian
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Re: Samma samadhi: Sujin Boriharnwanaket

Postby chandrafabian » Wed Aug 04, 2010 10:07 am


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Re: Samma samadhi: Sujin Boriharnwanaket

Postby chandrafabian » Wed Aug 04, 2010 11:07 am


dhamma follower
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Re: Samma samadhi: Sujin Boriharnwanaket

Postby dhamma follower » Wed Aug 04, 2010 1:29 pm


Virgo
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Re: Samma samadhi: Sujin Boriharnwanaket

Postby Virgo » Wed Aug 04, 2010 4:30 pm

I'll try to clear things up with one post. And by the way tilt, I already addressed Retros concerns stop hampering on it and show how Mahasi addresses the soil and the trunk please. There is a message about Retros message in one of the post scripts on my posts just a few posts ago.

Mahasi's system talks about noting all phenomena that arise. You note the abdomen in a certain way and whatever else arises you note. If seeing arises, you note "seeing", and so on. Anyone familiar with Mahasi knows this. When walking you note the "lifting" and so on-- all the movement of the steps. At the same time, if something else becomes clear to you, you note it.

That is a brief synopsis of his meditation instructions. Does everyone agree?

Now. The soil is missing from Mahasi Sayadaws method. He does not teach the subjects of the aggregates, the elements, the sense bases, the factulties and truths, or Dependent Origination. I don't have to quote Mahasi saying he doesn't teach this. He instructs people to begin meditation right away, not to learn points about these subjects.

From Mahasi, all of the five contemplations of the first trunk are missing. All of the contemplations of the second trunk are missing. All of the third, all of the fourth, all of the fifth. I have already given quotes from Vsm showing that wisdom is developed by means of the soil and the trunk.

Now I don't really need to quote anything else. What needs to be quoted, needs to be quoted to me. Specifically, where all the components of the soil are present, and where are components of each of the five purifications are present. This is clear. I don't think I need a lecture on arguing. I need to see where all these things are present in order to confirm that Mahasi Sayadaws method is indeed in line with the Visuddhimagga.

Dhamma follower, I practice Theravada now (and have at points in the past as well).
Kevin


Virgo
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Re: Samma samadhi: Sujin Boriharnwanaket

Postby Virgo » Wed Aug 04, 2010 5:25 pm

When I was doing my long Mahasi retreat in Thailand, after days or weeks of intense practice I started to get a clear mental understanding of the separation of nama and rupa. I was very surprised and thought I was doing well. After the meditation was done, this didn't happen at all during daily life. From learning the soil in the Visuddhimagga, most of which I studied on my own or learned from my teachers like Ajahn Sujin and so on, and I then applied in the contemplations of the trunk given in the Visuddhimagga, I reached that same deep clear understanding of the separation of mind and matter much more quickly even after brief periods of easy, pragmatic mental contemplations. In fact my understanding of mind and matter was much better. In the Mahasi method there was no system of contemplating the causes of their arising. Applying the second purification of the trunk and seeing that this nama and rupa that I had now clearly seperated (and was able to know way more about than I did through the mahasi meditaiton technique) I was able to see how all this mind and matter arises only through specific conditions by contemplating by way of Kamma and Fruition, which is one of the contemplations listed for the second part of the trunk. This way completely absent in Mahasi meditation as are the other purifications (which should go in order according to Vism). I was at ease, not tired from strenous meditation which is not samattha and which does not bring about deep concentration easily, and I was able to do it in a short amount of time using the Visuddhimagga. I got much farther than I did in the meditation retreat and understood more clearly. The Visuddhimagga recommends samattha first so the mind is concentrated and clear, not wearing yourself out through constant noting objects. Mahasi retreat left me tired, worn out, and not very clear. Ther e is a little bit of benefit to it, but it doesn't nearly match the instructions in the Visuddhimagga.


Kevin


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tiltbillings
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Re: Samma samadhi: Sujin Boriharnwanaket

Postby tiltbillings » Wed Aug 04, 2010 7:48 pm


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Re: Samma samadhi: Sujin Boriharnwanaket

Postby tiltbillings » Wed Aug 04, 2010 7:58 pm


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Re: Samma samadhi: Sujin Boriharnwanaket

Postby tiltbillings » Wed Aug 04, 2010 8:08 pm


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Re: Samma samadhi: Sujin Boriharnwanaket

Postby Virgo » Wed Aug 04, 2010 8:27 pm



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Re: Samma samadhi: Sujin Boriharnwanaket

Postby mikenz66 » Wed Aug 04, 2010 8:43 pm

Hi Kevin,

From my point of view you are giving a cartoonish view of how practitioners approach study and retreats, and the instructions that teachers give. My teachers have never just said "watch this and that and that's all there is too it". They have explained the aggregates, the elements, the sense bases, dependent origination and the noble truths. Not necessarily in some particular order, but I don't find that particularly interesting or relevant. It's simply a matter of which times one studies and which times one puts it into practise.

As you can see from reading the Visuddhimagga there are many ways of approaching each insight. To me the Visuddhimagga is like a collection of Dhamma talks giving advice from the experience of various ancient practitioners, not a linear thesis.

You yourself have now said that with the retreat experience and some study you had a good understanding. Sadhu. That's exactly in line with what we have been saying. You need the combination of both. Perhaps it would have been better to have more study beforehand. Who knows. The sequence one gets teachings is not necessarily optimally organised. But why obsess about it?

Mike

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tiltbillings
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Re: Samma samadhi: Sujin Boriharnwanaket

Postby tiltbillings » Wed Aug 04, 2010 9:24 pm

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tiltbillings
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Re: Samma samadhi: Sujin Boriharnwanaket

Postby tiltbillings » Wed Aug 04, 2010 9:36 pm


Virgo
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Re: Samma samadhi: Sujin Boriharnwanaket

Postby Virgo » Wed Aug 04, 2010 9:45 pm

The instructions for meditation given by Mahasi Sayadaw are not complex. It is something one days over and over again. In brief, one notes all mental and physical phenomena in ones experience. The main object is the abdomen, and there are sencondary objects. Does any one deny this?

That does not match the directions of how insight is taught in the Wisdom section of the Visuddhimagga, starting with studying the soil and asking questions about it, moving onto using one of five given contemplations derived from suttas to understand materiallity and mentallity, moving on to contemplating that materiallity and mentallity by way of Dependent Origination, right by way of the actual list of Dependent Origination, and so on. End of story. It's not there.

As to there being many ways taught, the text states that each purifcation must be accomplished before beginning the next one. The only exception made is for people with mastery of jhana. People can attain nibbana at anytime, but they should continue through the purifications.

Again, you're lying. I did respond to Retros message, twice now. Once in the post script of on of my posts where I said I feel exactly as mike feels about it (referring to mikes post) and that what mike points out shows it is definitely nama rupa being talked about. In response to you saying "don't ignore retro", I pointed this out to you in another post. Ell-wriggling, lying, distracting, turning things back, all the usual for you Tilt. Still no explanation from you of hwo the the soil or five purifications are actually present in these methods you like, while I have shown how they are absent. Better luck next time with your eel-wriggling. I'm done with you now.

Kevin


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tiltbillings
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Re: Samma samadhi: Sujin Boriharnwanaket

Postby tiltbillings » Wed Aug 04, 2010 9:53 pm



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