Sabba Kaaya or Sabbe Kaaya? Passambhayam?

[lojong1]

a few quick trivia questions to keep me off my toes and you on your bum

Are sabba and sabbe the same word different number, i.e.:
sabba = nom. sing.?
sabbe = nom. pl.?
Or does one mean 'whole', the other 'all/every'?
Are both terms used in different versions of anapanasati and satipatthana in different countries/canons?

Can 'passambhayam' mean: [calm/calmed; having calmed; having been calmed; being calm'] instead of ['calming']?
Passive past participal or gerund or something else instead of whatever it usually is translated as?

[beeblebrox]

I'm a beginner, but seems like Sabba and Sabbe are the same word, but in different numbers to agree with a noun. So, sabba = whole, and sabbe = all. The whole person (singular), all of the people (plural). Still my guess, though.

[David N. Snyder]

I am also a beginner at Pali, but think that:

sabbe = one
sabba = all, every

[beeblebrox]

I am also a beginner at Pali, but think that:

sabbe = one
sabba = all, every

I'm not sure, but I think they both probably should have a meaning that is consistent (as long as they're read in the same context). Like the following:

Every person. (sabba)
Every people. (sabbe)

All of the person. (sabba)
All of the people. (sabbe)

The whole of a person. (sabba)
The whole of a people. (sabbe)

Etc.

[yuttadhammo]

a few quick trivia questions to keep me off my toes and you on your bum

Are sabba and sabbe the same word different number, i.e.:
sabba = nom. sing.?
sabbe = nom. pl.?
Or does one mean 'whole', the other 'all/every'?

sabba is not a proper Pali form - it is the undeclined form of the pronoun. The only place you would find it is in a compound, e.g.:

sabbabuddhānubhāvena sadā sotthī bhavantu te. (sing)

sabbadānaṃ dhammadānaṃ jināti. (pl)

in which case, it can be either plural or singular, as signified by the noun in the compound.

Perhaps you are thinking of the form "sabbaa" or "sabbā"?

If so, sabbā and sabbe are both pathamaa (nominative) and dutiyaa (accusative) plural, one being masc. and the other feminine:

satañca gandho paṭivātameti, sabbā disā sappuriso pavāyati. (fem.)

ekaṃ nāma kiṃ"? "sabbe sattā āhāraṭṭhitikā

Are both terms used in different versions of anapanasati and satipatthana in different countries/canons?

Maybe I'm missing something, but I'm going to go out on a limb and say that sabba is not used in any canon, except when contracted in a compound; sabbaa and sabbe are used in all, as explained above.

Can 'passambhayam' mean: calm/calmed; having calmed; having been calmed; being calm' instead of 'calming'?
Passive past participal or gerund or something else instead of whatever it usually is translated as?

According to the vinaya commentary:

passambhayaṃ cittasaṅkhāra nti oḷārikaṃ oḷārikaṃ cittasaṅkhāraṃ passambhento, nirodhentoti attho.

passambhayaṃ kāyasaṅkhāraṃ assasissāmi ... pe ... passasissāmīti sikkhatī ti oḷārikaṃ kāyasaṅkhāraṃ passambhento paṭippassambhento nirodhento vūpasamento assasissāmi passasissāmīti sikkhati.

I think passambhaya is a past participle already... meaning "made calm". So: "I will breathe [so that] the bodily formations are calmed"
You can't just "make" it a gerund, though That would be passambhetvaa:

pubbe khvāhaṃ, bhante, gelaññe passambhetvā passambhetvā kāyasaṅkhāre viharāmi, sohaṃ samādhiṃ nappaṭilabhāmi.

Best wishes,

Yuttadhammo

[lojong1]

I think passambhaya is a past participle already... meaning "made calm". So: "I will breathe [so that] the bodily formations are calmed"

"

So-- 'Passambhayam kaayasankhaaram passasissaami' might be better translated as: 'The bodily formations [being already] calmed, I shall breathe in;" instead of "I breathe in [while intentionally] calming the bodily formations?

[edit: I'm now leaning toward kayasankhara = body fabricator]

[yuttadhammo]

So-- 'Passambhayam kaayasankhaaram passasissaamii' might be better translated as: 'The bodily formations [being already] calmed, I shall breathe in;" instead of "I breathe in [while intentionally] calming the bodily formations?

I doubt it... the commentaries prefer the interpretation, "I will breathe making calm the formation of the body (singular, btw)" . Perhaps there is a missing verbal form, eg "karonto":

[aha.m] passambhayam kaayasankhaaram [karonto] passasissaami

Just a guess, I'm not really an expert

[Kare]

:thanks:

I think passambhaya is a past participle already... meaning "made calm". So: "I will breathe [so that] the bodily formations are calmed"

"

So-- 'Passambhayam kaayasankhaaram passasissaami' might be better translated as: 'The bodily formations [being already] calmed, I shall breathe in;" instead of "I breathe in [while intentionally] calming the bodily formations?

I would rather regard "passambhayam" as a present participle, meaning "while calming".

[lojong1]

I would rather regard "passambhayam" as a present participle, meaning "while calming".

Because that's what it is in Pali or because that's the usual English wording?

[Kare]

I would rather regard "passambhayam" as a present participle, meaning "while calming".

Because that's what it is in Pali or because that's the usual English wording?

Because that's what it is in Pali.

[lojong1]

Thanks kare, I'm finding more confirmation of that by googling passambhati. Makes me want to get some proper study material for home--maybe the Pali set Beeblebrox recommended.

[beeblebrox]

Thanks kare, I'm finding more confirmation of that by googling passambhati. Makes me want to get some proper study material for home--maybe the Pali set Beeblebrox recommended.

I probably wouldn't have gotten it if it wasn't for Kare's recommendation. By the way, it seems like the set also includes the variations, in brackets... so that's a very nice bonus. I still don't understand most of the Pali words, but I still read anyway to get the feeling of their patterns.

Actually... this morning, I read a line that seems relevant to this thread, from the Saṃyutta Nikāya:

"Na tvaṃ bāle pajānāsi, yathā arahataṃ vaco;
Aniccā sabbasaṅkhārā [sabbe saṅkhārā (sī. syā. kam.)], uppādavadhammino;
Uppajjitvā nirujjhanti, tesaṃ vūpasamo sukho"ti.

[PeterB]

I would rather regard "passambhayam" as a present participle, meaning "while calming".

Because that's what it is in Pali or because that's the usual English wording?

Because that's what it is in Pali.

and because it makes more sense in the process that is being described.

[Kare]

and because it makes more sense in the process that is being described.

The Pali texts usually make good sense.

[PeterB]

Particularly when approached without subjectivism...and your readings are admirable in that regard Kare.

[Kare]

Particularly when approached without subjectivism...and your readings are admirable in that regard Kare.

Thank you, but that really is impossible. We all bring our linguistic and cultural into the process of reading, interpreting, understanding and translating texts in foreign languages. The best we can do, is to be aware of this problem, and try to minimalize it as best we can. But we never succeed 100 %, and usually it is easier for others to discover failings, misunderstandings and mistakes than it is for ourselves.

Therefore it is a great advantage to be able to cooperate with some critically minded friends during a translation. I was lucky enough to have that benefit during my last translation work, collecting and translating a large anthology of Pali texts into Norwegian. Their critical remarks sometimes annoyed me, since I was convinced that my suggestions were better than theirs ... and we had lots of debates. But I have to admit that the final result became much better thanks to their efforts.

[yuttadhammo]

I would rather regard "passambhayam" as a present participle, meaning "while calming".

Because that's what it is in Pali or because that's the usual English wording?

Because that's what it is in Pali.

I don't understand... how can it be a present participle? Wouldn't that require one of the present participle endings, viz. anta or maana ?

[Kare]

I would rather regard "passambhayam" as a present participle, meaning "while calming".

I don't understand... how can it be a present participle? Wouldn't that require one of the present participle endings, viz. anta or maana ?

The present participles in -ant have the ending -a.m or -anto in masculine, singular, nominative. Therefore "passambhaya.m" has the correct present participle ending.

[yuttadhammo]

The present participles in -ant have the ending -a.m or -anto in masculine, singular, nominative. Therefore "passambhaya.m" has the correct present participle ending.

Thanks, I was given the reference in Kaccaayana:

186, 107. simhi gacchantādīnaṃ ntasaddo aṃ.

[lojong1]

The present participles in -ant have the ending -a.m or -anto in masculine, singular, nominative. Therefore "passambhaya.m" has the correct present participle ending.

I'm still confused; any more help with the following is appreciated...(hope I can understand it!)
Using Warder's grammar and other sources, the -a.m ending of present participles is used in nominative, as you say. Since the pres. part. is added to the verb stem, where did the 'y' come from in passambhaya.m? Wouldn't it be passambha.m or passambhanto in nom. masc. sing.?
Even so, kaayasankhaara.m is not nominative, it's accusative, and Warder's table (p.46) does not show '-a.m' as a possible accusative ending for pres. part. agreement here, it shows -anta.m (making passambhanta.m). And why is the accusative used here anyway? Surely it doesn't indicate what is being breathed in!
Maybe this is way too advanced for me right now when major scales and power chords are still challenging...
...
...Okay, I just found enough answers to let me sleep tonight.
"441. Verbal bases ending in e (1st Conj. 3rd. Division; 7th. Conj. and causal bases. See "Derivative or secondary conjugation") which have also another base in aya take only the termination nta after the base in e, and both ota and µ after the base in aya."
http://www.tipitaka.net/pali/grammar/chpt10.htm

I had assumed this participle was from passambhati instead of passambheti, and didn't know the pali gerund/absolutive is indeclinable.