Samma samadhi: Sujin Boriharnwanaket

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Re: Samma samadhi: Sujin Boriharnwanaket

Postby Virgo » Wed Aug 04, 2010 6:59 am

chandrafabian wrote:
Virgo wrote:If you read the whole section on Panna you will see that soil and the first two purifcations of the trunk must come before that. Also, you have misunderstood that section, in and of itself, nevermind the fact that the rest of the soil and trunk are not present in Mahasi and Goenka method.

Be well,

Kevin


Dear Kevin,
First thing first, do you agree there is Arahant without Jhana?
And please specify one by one the soil you need to know about, in Mahasi method.

Mettacittena,
fabian

Hi Chandrafabian,

The Visuddhimagga clearly states that one can attain Arahant without jhana, chandrafabian.

Please read the thread. I listed all the topics in the soil already.

Thank you for your question.
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Re: Samma samadhi: Sujin Boriharnwanaket

Postby tiltbillings » Wed Aug 04, 2010 7:28 am

Geez, Kevin, any reason you would like to give us for blowing off retro's msgs?
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: Samma samadhi: Sujin Boriharnwanaket

Postby tiltbillings » Wed Aug 04, 2010 7:31 am

What you said: ”You still think the soil can be understood through noting things.”

Context: You said, ”First of all, the soil is still missing.”

My reply: Having done several 3 month retreats, being taught by Mahasi Sayadaw trained teachers, the comment that the soil is is missing is meaningless. The soil is very much part of the teaching that goes on during the retreat within the context of meditation. I did not say, in this context, that the “soil” can be understood through noting things. The clear point of what I did say was that it is a part of an ongoing teaching that is part of the retreat structure.

Now, if you are going to represent what I say, do it accurately and actually address the point made. I know what the VM says, but there is no reason that under the guidance of experienced, knowledgeable teachers of the Mahasi Sayadaw method the teaching should not and cannot not proceed in that manner. And it is certainly not contravened by the suttas.

Your claim that I said: ”You still think the soil can be understood through noting things.” is, in the context, false.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: Samma samadhi: Sujin Boriharnwanaket

Postby Virgo » Wed Aug 04, 2010 8:20 am

tiltbillings wrote:What you said: ”You still think the soil can be understood through noting things.”

Context: You said, ”First of all, the soil is still missing.”

My reply: Having done several 3 month retreats, being taught by Mahasi Sayadaw trained teachers, the comment that the soil is is missing is meaningless. The soil is very much part of the teaching that goes on during the retreat within the context of meditation. I did not say, in this context, that the “soil” can be understood through noting things. The clear point of what I did say was that it is a part of an ongoing teaching that is part of the retreat structure.


No you didn't. You said it that it was taught "within the context of meditation".

tiltbillings wrote:Now, if you are going to represent what I say, do it accurately and actually address the point made. I know what the VM says,


No you don't.

Now prove it using the texts ... if you can. The soil, the first purifications, the second, third, fourth, and fifth. I want to see how they are all included in the Mahasi meditation please. Clearly, if the meditation is in line with this you can prove it. Do so please. I would like to see some detail about how each aspect is present. If not, don't respect any more replies from me in this thread. You have been wasting my time. Remember to include which classifications are used on each level.

Actually. I don't even want to see your reply. Someone with a little respect for having an argument that is actually based on texts can e-mail me it. Take care. To this point, you haven't shown a thing yet you have post after post of arguments.


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Re: Samma samadhi: Sujin Boriharnwanaket

Postby tiltbillings » Wed Aug 04, 2010 8:53 am

Virgo wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:What you said: ”You still think the soil can be understood through noting things.”

Context: You said, ”First of all, the soil is still missing.”

My reply: Having done several 3 month retreats, being taught by Mahasi Sayadaw trained teachers, the comment that the soil is is missing is meaningless. The soil is very much part of the teaching that goes on during the retreat within the context of meditation. I did not say, in this context, that the “soil” can be understood through noting things. The clear point of what I did say was that it is a part of an ongoing teaching that is part of the retreat structure.


No you didn't. You said it that it was taught "within the context of meditation".
And it is a meditation retreat. Goodness. I thought that was understood, but I realize for you I must spell it out. I was referring to meditation retreats.

Kevin wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:Now, if you are going to represent what I say, do it accurately and actually address the point made. I know what the VM says,


No you don't.
Oh, no. Kevin, is demonstrating his iddhis, reading my mind. Dear, there is now no place to hide. The problem is, with Kevin's iddhis they don't work so well.

Now prove it using the texts ... if you can. The soil, the first purifications, the second, third, fourth, and fifth. I want to see how they are all included in the Mahasi meditation please.
Now Kevin is wanting me to do the work he should have done quite sometime ago with all his claims about what Mahasi Sayadaw suppopsedly said without his quoting him, but rarely, if at all.

Clearly, if the meditation is in line with this you can prove it. Do so please. I would like to see some detail about how each aspect is present. If not, don't respect any more replies from me in this thread. You have been wasting my time. Remember to include which classifications are used on each level.
This is your job, Kevin, given you many statements about what Mahasi Sayadw supposedly said, but never quoting his actual words.

It is all about correctly formulating an argument, something you have yet to do. Mike gave you a brief, but nice, example of what you should have been doing all along, but there there is no way in hell I'll do your heavy lifting for you. You want to meaningfully show Mahasi Sayadaw's teachings are a problem and not consistent with the VM, you are going to have to do far more than simply saying Mahasi Sayadaw supposedly teaches this and teaches that without ever directly quoting him. You made the claims, you need to do the work.

Actually. I don't even want to see your reply. Someone with a little respect for having an argument that is actually based on texts can e-mail me it. Take care. To this point, you haven't shown a thing yet you have post after post of arguments.
The problem is, Kevin, for all of your bluster about Mahasi Sayadaw, you have made essentially no real argument, giving me little of any real substance to respond to other than to tell you you need to step it up, to do the real work, which you have not yet done.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: Samma samadhi: Sujin Boriharnwanaket

Postby tiltbillings » Wed Aug 04, 2010 8:55 am

Geez, Kevin, any reason you would like to give us for blowing off retro's msgs?
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: Samma samadhi: Sujin Boriharnwanaket

Postby chandrafabian » Wed Aug 04, 2010 10:07 am

tiltbillings wrote:
Virgo wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:What you said: ”You still think the soil can be understood through noting things.”

Context: You said, ”First of all, the soil is still missing.”

My reply: Having done several 3 month retreats, being taught by Mahasi Sayadaw trained teachers, the comment that the soil is is missing is meaningless. The soil is very much part of the teaching that goes on during the retreat within the context of meditation. I did not say, in this context, that the “soil” can be understood through noting things. The clear point of what I did say was that it is a part of an ongoing teaching that is part of the retreat structure.


No you didn't. You said it that it was taught "within the context of meditation".
And it is a meditation retreat. Goodness. I thought that was understood, but I realize for you I must spell it out. I was referring to meditation retreats.

Kevin wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:Now, if you are going to represent what I say, do it accurately and actually address the point made. I know what the VM says,


No you don't.
Oh, no. Kevin, is demonstrating his iddhis, reading my mind. Dear, there is now no place to hide. The problem is, with Kevin's iddhis they don't work so well.

Now prove it using the texts ... if you can. The soil, the first purifications, the second, third, fourth, and fifth. I want to see how they are all included in the Mahasi meditation please.
Now Kevin is wanting me to do the work he should have done quite sometime ago with all his claims about what Mahasi Sayadaw suppopsedly said without his quoting him, but rarely, if at all.

Clearly, if the meditation is in line with this you can prove it. Do so please. I would like to see some detail about how each aspect is present. If not, don't respect any more replies from me in this thread. You have been wasting my time. Remember to include which classifications are used on each level.
This is your job, Kevin, given you many statements about what Mahasi Sayadw supposedly said, but never quoting his actual words.

It is all about correctly formulating an argument, something you have yet to do. Mike gave you a brief, but nice, example of what you should have been doing all along, but there there is no way in hell I'll do your heavy lifting for you. You want to meaningfully show Mahasi Sayadaw's teachings are a problem and not consistent with the VM, you are going to have to do far more than simply saying Mahasi Sayadaw supposedly teaches this and teaches that without ever directly quoting him. You made the claims, you need to do the work.

Actually. I don't even want to see your reply. Someone with a little respect for having an argument that is actually based on texts can e-mail me it. Take care. To this point, you haven't shown a thing yet you have post after post of arguments.
The problem is, Kevin, for all of your bluster about Mahasi Sayadaw, you have made essentially no real argument, giving me little of any real substance to respond to other than to tell you you need to step it up, to do the real work, which you have not yet done.


Dear kevin,

I agree with tiltbillings, in Buddhist teaching we shouldn't make assumption or conclusion based on hearsay, you must quote what Mahasi Sayadaw's wrong statement or wrong method, If you can not show or quote, you make a serious false claim.

About rising and falling of the abdomen, it is included in kayanupassana (you can read in kayagati sutta) The Sutta not detailed everything of course, but mindfulness on sensation caused by body movement is the key here.

Metacittena,
fabian
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Re: Samma samadhi: Sujin Boriharnwanaket

Postby chandrafabian » Wed Aug 04, 2010 11:07 am

Virgo wrote:
chandrafabian wrote:
Virgo wrote:If you read the whole section on Panna you will see that soil and the first two purifcations of the trunk must come before that. Also, you have misunderstood that section, in and of itself, nevermind the fact that the rest of the soil and trunk are not present in Mahasi and Goenka method.

Be well,

Kevin


Dear Kevin,
First thing first, do you agree there is Arahant without Jhana?
And please specify one by one the soil you need to know about, in Mahasi method.

Mettacittena,
fabian

Hi Chandrafabian,

The Visuddhimagga clearly states that one can attain Arahant without jhana, chandrafabian.

Please read the thread. I listed all the topics in the soil already.

Thank you for your question.


Dear Kevin,

You mean this?

If they have read them, they should understand each individual aggregate and how each of them should be regarded. Each aggregate should be regarded in a specific way according to Vsm. It never says one should focus on hearing as it arises, or any other object when developing wisdom. It says hearing should be understood and regarded in a certain way. Essentially Vsm details the development of wisdom first by saying that there is no specific meditation method that can cause the vipassana insight knowledges to arise; however, that one should understand certain things intellectually while having sila and samadhi to help condition higher wisdom (and that the higher wisdom will only happen if the accumulations are there). First it describes understanding the aggregates. It details each aggregate so you understand them each in a detailed way and shows how each aggregate should be regarded differently by the person (each in its own certain specific way). After one does that then it explains that then one should understand by way of sense bases and says precisely how one should accomplish this. And so on, eventually ending in Dependent Origination. Again it says there is no technique to bring about wisdom but that one should clarify about these things and view and understand them correctly, which refines conceptual wisdom. It is clearly about understanding and regarding things in a certain way, intellectually (and the same goes for the Commy to the Satipatthana Sutta which I have asked people to take a closer look at too). It says one should do this while having sila and having a samattha subject of meditation. It says that concentration from samattha can be a helping support for wisdom.


You claim Visuddhi Magga says this, Visuddhi Magga says that, Do you think we know what you are talking about? If your references really based on Visuddhi Magga please tell us in which page?

My view is more in line with the Vsm now, I feel. I still think, as per the Vsm, that one can't cause wisdom on a deep level to come up, but that one can develop Right Understanding on the conceptual level about dhammas to help condition wisdom (in the way the Vsm teaches). Again, this helps but it also depends on accumulations from doing this in past lives. That is why one person attains nibbana a week after hearing the dhamma and one attains after 70 years, even though they both hear the same dhamma. This is not much different from how Khun Sujin teaches the development of wisdom, Mike. She does tell people that they should hear dhamma, listen to it, discuss it, and try to understand it conceptually as much as possible. Also, that people should try and think in terms of mental states, and urges people to also learn details about dhammas. The Vsm. is very much the same, except it shows one should learn about the aggregates first. That one should learn them one at a time and review them. One should know how to regard each aggregate in its own way. Then it says one should do so by Sense bases.. then this way.. then another way, and so on, reviewing. In that regard it is very similar but a bit different to how Khun Sujin teaches. I mean she teaches about the same aggregates and so on. It also says though, that one should intentionally practice sila and samattha, wether you reach jhana or not. It states that this can help condition wisdom. Sujin disagrees that these two things (sila and samattha) can be intentionally developed . She takes the approach that if they arise they arise, if they don't they don't, by conditions. I think she takes the part about not being able to cause higher wisdom to arise too far and thinks that it means that one cannot cause the wisdom that naturally refrains from sila to arise, so that one should not practice sila and so on (same for samattha). This is as far as I understand. Please forgive any mistakes. Have a nice day.

Kevin


I agree we should hear and learn Dhamma to enrich our understanding, but understanding through learning Dhamma without actually seeing or experiencing is a superficial understanding.
Let me ask you Kevin, can you see your own thoughts? Can you see the characteristic of your thought? Can you see what make your thought arises? Can you see the beginning of your thought? Can you see the what condition make your thoughts ceases? do you know how is the form of your thought? What is happening after thinking process ceases?
If by learning you can experience this, than I am agree with you, mere learning can cause higher wisdom to arise.

Mettacittena,
fabian
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Re: Samma samadhi: Sujin Boriharnwanaket

Postby dhamma follower » Wed Aug 04, 2010 1:29 pm

Virgo wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:Actually, you need to quote my words directly. We have seen enough of your misrepresenting what I say for you not to be trusted in what you say about what I say.

Gladly Tilt.

tiltbillings wrote:The soil is very much part of the teaching that goes on during the retreat within the context of meditation.


There you have it. And that is why I say you have not even looked at the texts I provide. Why? Because the text shows that the soil comes before any meditation. They are topics to be understood not meditated upon, and you should ask your teacher about knotty points in them. Again... those subjects are the aggregates, the sense bases, the elements, the truths and faculties, and Dependent Origination. Only when all of these are clear can you apply them in the trunk as described in the text.




Kevin,

Thanks for bringing up the Teaching about how to cultivate Panna. I do appreciate it a lot.

However, I wonder why this "before meditation" should be taken so rigidly. Let's say Mahasi's students go to a retreat, start practicing the technique, then get the information about the aggregates, the sense base...., then continue to practice. So now what is before and what is after ?
Even someone who starts right away, in this life, with listening to good explanations of ultimate truth before doing any meditation, might he has not, in a previous life, done some kinds of practice without the necessary information. It doesn't prevent him from gaining insight once the right information is presented to him today, does it ?
If we consider the various techniques as skillful means, why can't we expect them to yield the same outcome at some point ?
In the 7 factors of enlightenment, beside the factor of investigation, you also have other factors( joy, calmness, concentration....) that such techniques like Mahasi's or Goenka's can help to cultivate. Well, techniques that are not to be attached to...
The experience of Nibanna happens when all of them are present and culminate in perfect balance, doesn't it ? Before that, some may be stronger at times, others are weaker and the adjustment goes on...I agree that right understanding is a leading factor, but for some people, calming the mind gives rise to better understanding.
IMO, not everyone is ready to study the Abhidhamma at their first encounter with Buddhism. Personally, I would have turned it away immediately, have I not had some experiences from the "just do it" approach first. People faculties are different, hence different techniques are needed. The critics of those techniques would be valid if it can be proved that they don't contain right view in the way they are taught as a whole, but I dont think that is the case.

Well, just some thoughts...

Btw, out of curiosity, I'd like to ask you something: you said somewhere that you are a Vajrayana practitioner. Could you please tell the reasons for the switch from a Theravadin to that ?

Best wishes,

D.F.
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Re: Samma samadhi: Sujin Boriharnwanaket

Postby Virgo » Wed Aug 04, 2010 4:30 pm

I'll try to clear things up with one post. And by the way tilt, I already addressed Retros concerns stop hampering on it and show how Mahasi addresses the soil and the trunk please. There is a message about Retros message in one of the post scripts on my posts just a few posts ago.

Mahasi's system talks about noting all phenomena that arise. You note the abdomen in a certain way and whatever else arises you note. If seeing arises, you note "seeing", and so on. Anyone familiar with Mahasi knows this. When walking you note the "lifting" and so on-- all the movement of the steps. At the same time, if something else becomes clear to you, you note it.

That is a brief synopsis of his meditation instructions. Does everyone agree?

Now. The soil is missing from Mahasi Sayadaws method. He does not teach the subjects of the aggregates, the elements, the sense bases, the factulties and truths, or Dependent Origination. I don't have to quote Mahasi saying he doesn't teach this. He instructs people to begin meditation right away, not to learn points about these subjects.

From Mahasi, all of the five contemplations of the first trunk are missing. All of the contemplations of the second trunk are missing. All of the third, all of the fourth, all of the fifth. I have already given quotes from Vsm showing that wisdom is developed by means of the soil and the trunk.

Now I don't really need to quote anything else. What needs to be quoted, needs to be quoted to me. Specifically, where all the components of the soil are present, and where are components of each of the five purifications are present. This is clear. I don't think I need a lecture on arguing. I need to see where all these things are present in order to confirm that Mahasi Sayadaws method is indeed in line with the Visuddhimagga.

Dhamma follower, I practice Theravada now (and have at points in the past as well).
Kevin
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Re: Samma samadhi: Sujin Boriharnwanaket

Postby Virgo » Wed Aug 04, 2010 5:25 pm

When I was doing my long Mahasi retreat in Thailand, after days or weeks of intense practice I started to get a clear mental understanding of the separation of nama and rupa. I was very surprised and thought I was doing well. After the meditation was done, this didn't happen at all during daily life. From learning the soil in the Visuddhimagga, most of which I studied on my own or learned from my teachers like Ajahn Sujin and so on, and I then applied in the contemplations of the trunk given in the Visuddhimagga, I reached that same deep clear understanding of the separation of mind and matter much more quickly even after brief periods of easy, pragmatic mental contemplations. In fact my understanding of mind and matter was much better. In the Mahasi method there was no system of contemplating the causes of their arising. Applying the second purification of the trunk and seeing that this nama and rupa that I had now clearly seperated (and was able to know way more about than I did through the mahasi meditaiton technique) I was able to see how all this mind and matter arises only through specific conditions by contemplating by way of Kamma and Fruition, which is one of the contemplations listed for the second part of the trunk. This way completely absent in Mahasi meditation as are the other purifications (which should go in order according to Vism). I was at ease, not tired from strenous meditation which is not samattha and which does not bring about deep concentration easily, and I was able to do it in a short amount of time using the Visuddhimagga. I got much farther than I did in the meditation retreat and understood more clearly. The Visuddhimagga recommends samattha first so the mind is concentrated and clear, not wearing yourself out through constant noting objects. Mahasi retreat left me tired, worn out, and not very clear. Ther e is a little bit of benefit to it, but it doesn't nearly match the instructions in the Visuddhimagga.


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Re: Samma samadhi: Sujin Boriharnwanaket

Postby tiltbillings » Wed Aug 04, 2010 7:48 pm

Virgo wrote:And by the way tilt, I already addressed Retros concerns stop hampering on it
Hampering on it? Huh? But, no, you have not addressed: viewtopic.php?f=19&t=5167&start=80#p80879
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

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Re: Samma samadhi: Sujin Boriharnwanaket

Postby tiltbillings » Wed Aug 04, 2010 7:58 pm

Virgo wrote:I'll try to clear things up with one post.
Not so clear.

show how Mahasi addresses the soil and the trunk please.
You have not shown that he has not. You just declare that he hasn't, but there is no reason to assume your unsupported declaration carries any weight or is an accurate reflection of the Mahasi Sayadaw method, which in my experience of multiple retreats, several months long, is not. Still waiting for you to do your job here and quit trying to foist the heavy lifting onto others.

Now. The soil is missing from Mahasi Sayadaws method. He does not teach the subjects of the aggregates, the elements, the sense bases, the factulties and truths, or Dependent Origination. I don't have to quote Mahasi saying he doesn't teach this. He instructs people to begin meditation right away, not to learn points about these subjects.
Actually, I and especially chandrafabian (who has done some of the heavy lifting you refuse to do) have nicely addressed this and as usual you have ignored it.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

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Re: Samma samadhi: Sujin Boriharnwanaket

Postby tiltbillings » Wed Aug 04, 2010 8:08 pm

Virgo wrote:When I was doing my long Mahasi retreat in Thailand,
Was it as long as your actual time as a monk? One retreat is just that, one retreat, and it is at best only a start, and it certainly is not at all a basis for an out of hand, wholesale dismissal of the Mahasi Sayadaw practice, especially when you never even quote him. Oh, well.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: Samma samadhi: Sujin Boriharnwanaket

Postby Virgo » Wed Aug 04, 2010 8:27 pm

tiltbillings wrote:
Virgo wrote:When I was doing my long Mahasi retreat in Thailand,
Was it as long as your actual time as a monk? One retreat is just that, one retreat, and it is at best only a start, and it certainly is not at all a basis for an out of hand, wholesale dismissal of the Mahasi Sayadaw practice, especially when you never even quote him. Oh, well.

You are a monster. You know I have shown that it is absent in his method both the soil and the trunk. You know his method... lift your leg, note each section of lifting, if you are looking forward, note looking, when you sit note rising, falling of abdomen, note anything else that comes to mind. Do I have to quote him saying that? That is his method. Within it the subjects I listed of the soil are not taught. Questions about them are not answered. Then the trunk is not pursued. The first purification is not pursued through any of the contemplations listed in the text. The second is not either. I quoted what all those things are. And you tell me I have to do the heavy lifting here? You have to show that those things are there. You have to show that he teaches to understanding the conditions of namma and rupa either by way of contemplation on Dependent Origination in Reverse, or Forward Order, or by contemplation of Kamma and Fruitions on the sense bases or one of the others listed in the second purification, and so on. What do I have to you quote. They are simply absent from his instructions. Read the things you have written to me, twisting, eel-wriggling, turning everything back on me when I have shown it all, You are a monster with no respect. You turn everything back. I have shown that he does not teach the soil or the first or second purification (and he doesnt teach the others either). You have not shown that he has.


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Re: Samma samadhi: Sujin Boriharnwanaket

Postby mikenz66 » Wed Aug 04, 2010 8:43 pm

Hi Kevin,

From my point of view you are giving a cartoonish view of how practitioners approach study and retreats, and the instructions that teachers give. My teachers have never just said "watch this and that and that's all there is too it". They have explained the aggregates, the elements, the sense bases, dependent origination and the noble truths. Not necessarily in some particular order, but I don't find that particularly interesting or relevant. It's simply a matter of which times one studies and which times one puts it into practise.

As you can see from reading the Visuddhimagga there are many ways of approaching each insight. To me the Visuddhimagga is like a collection of Dhamma talks giving advice from the experience of various ancient practitioners, not a linear thesis.

You yourself have now said that with the retreat experience and some study you had a good understanding. Sadhu. That's exactly in line with what we have been saying. You need the combination of both. Perhaps it would have been better to have more study beforehand. Who knows. The sequence one gets teachings is not necessarily optimally organised. But why obsess about it?

Mike
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Re: Samma samadhi: Sujin Boriharnwanaket

Postby tiltbillings » Wed Aug 04, 2010 9:24 pm

Virgo wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:
Virgo wrote:When I was doing my long Mahasi retreat in Thailand,
Was it as long as your actual time as a monk? One retreat is just that, one retreat, and it is at best only a start, and it certainly is not at all a basis for an out of hand, wholesale dismissal of the Mahasi Sayadaw practice, especially when you never even quote him. Oh, well.

You are a monster.
I am a monster. Heavens to betsy, Kevin, now there is a helpful statement that furthers dialogue and mutual understanding.

You know I have shown that it is absent in his method both the soil and the trunk.
No. You have not shown any such thing. You seem to think that just because you assert it (without evidence as to what Mahasi Sayadaw teaches) that you have made a good argument for your position. You repeatedly state that this and that is the Mahasi Sayadaw position, but you do not quote him. Others here have quoted him and shown, with example, what he has taught that does not support your position, which you then ignore. Again, it comes down to formulating a carefully crafted argument, which you, as of yet, have not come even remotely close to doing. You simply are asserting your position and ignoring the reasonable responses given to you by others here that run counter your position.

You know his method... lift your leg, note each section of lifting, if you are looking forward, note looking, when you sit note rising, falling of abdomen, note anything else that comes to mind. Do I have to quote him saying that? That is his method.
That is only a very small part of his method, but you totally ignore what underlies the external method, which in part is drawn out by retro in this msg, which you ignore: viewtopic.php?f=19&t=5167&start=80#p80879 And you have ignored both what Fabian and I had to say about it.

You have not shown that he has.
But you are the one claiming - first - that he has not, so it is incumbent upon you to make your case, something you seem unable to do. I have outlined what you need to do. Mike and Fabian have given a nice brief examples of some of the work you need to do. We are waiting.
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This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: Samma samadhi: Sujin Boriharnwanaket

Postby tiltbillings » Wed Aug 04, 2010 9:36 pm

mikenz66 wrote: But why obsess about it?
Because if it does not match to every little jot and tittle, it is wrong, and that is nothing more than a form of ritualism. In other words, an obsessive adherence to the ritual of the letter and never mind the spirit of the teaching.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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tiltbillings
 
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Re: Samma samadhi: Sujin Boriharnwanaket

Postby Virgo » Wed Aug 04, 2010 9:45 pm

The instructions for meditation given by Mahasi Sayadaw are not complex. It is something one days over and over again. In brief, one notes all mental and physical phenomena in ones experience. The main object is the abdomen, and there are sencondary objects. Does any one deny this?

That does not match the directions of how insight is taught in the Wisdom section of the Visuddhimagga, starting with studying the soil and asking questions about it, moving onto using one of five given contemplations derived from suttas to understand materiallity and mentallity, moving on to contemplating that materiallity and mentallity by way of Dependent Origination, right by way of the actual list of Dependent Origination, and so on. End of story. It's not there.

As to there being many ways taught, the text states that each purifcation must be accomplished before beginning the next one. The only exception made is for people with mastery of jhana. People can attain nibbana at anytime, but they should continue through the purifications.

Again, you're lying. I did respond to Retros message, twice now. Once in the post script of on of my posts where I said I feel exactly as mike feels about it (referring to mikes post) and that what mike points out shows it is definitely nama rupa being talked about. In response to you saying "don't ignore retro", I pointed this out to you in another post. Ell-wriggling, lying, distracting, turning things back, all the usual for you Tilt. Still no explanation from you of hwo the the soil or five purifications are actually present in these methods you like, while I have shown how they are absent. Better luck next time with your eel-wriggling. I'm done with you now.

Kevin
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Re: Samma samadhi: Sujin Boriharnwanaket

Postby tiltbillings » Wed Aug 04, 2010 9:53 pm

Virgo wrote:The instructions for meditation given by Mahasi Sayadaw are not complex. It is something one days over and over again. In brief, one notes all mental and physical phenomena in ones experience. The main object is the abdomen, and there are sencondary objects. Does any one deny this?
No one is denying this and this has been discussed by your "opposition" and you simply ignore these responses as you have been ignoring retro's msg I keep trying to you to respond to: viewtopic.php?f=19&t=5167&start=80#p80879

That does not match the directions of how insight is taught in the Wisdom section of the Visuddhimagga
And this has been responded to, which you continue to ignore. What is coming a across here from you is the ritualism of an obsessive adherence to the letter, ignoring the spirit of what is said.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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tiltbillings
 
Posts: 19901
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am

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