Layman Arahant

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
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Zom
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Re: Layman Arahant

Post by Zom »

How to test if someone is arahant:

http://www.buddhanet.net/budsas/ebud/ma ... hana-e.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
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tiltbillings
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Re: Layman Arahant

Post by tiltbillings »

mud wrote:If a layperson were to become an arahant, then how would they live their daily life? They would have no desire to do anything. I imagine all they would do is teach dhamma, why would they not ordain? It seems like it would be the most effective use of the rest of their time.
If they had no desire to do anything, then why would they have a desire to ordain or to teach?
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
fabianfred
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Re: Layman Arahant

Post by fabianfred »

thereductor wrote:
Yodsak wrote:
David, my reply was aimed at Bodom's assertion that there are no arahants without the Buddhasasana.

And is the Pali canon (like the bible and the koran) unimpeachable? :twothumbsup:
Don't surrender your own moral autority please.
The Pali canon is likely the only text to which you could surrender your moral authority and still be an exemplar person. But that's not what people are advocating, I don't think. But certain truths do have to be understood in order for Arahantship to be attained, and those truths are currently embodied in the canon. Not all parts of the canon are as essential as the other parts, but the essential truths are in there.
The Buddha was asked if other teachers teaching might enable one to reach nirvana....and he replied, yes....if those teachings contained the Noble Eightfold path and Four Noble truths.
I suspect no others do.....
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Virgo
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Re: Layman Arahant

Post by Virgo »

fabianfred wrote:My present teacher, a Thai lady, mother and housewife, I and many followers consider to be arahant.
Since she is female the chance to ordain is not an option....what then ????
So she has absolutely no defilements?

Kevoin
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tiltbillings
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Re: Layman Arahant

Post by tiltbillings »

Virgo wrote:
fabianfred wrote:My present teacher, a Thai lady, mother and housewife, I and many followers consider to be arahant.
Since she is female the chance to ordain is not an option....what then ????
So she has absolutely no defilements?

Kevoin
And we are, Kevoin, to judge upon what basis?
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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Virgo
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Re: Layman Arahant

Post by Virgo »

tiltbillings wrote:
Virgo wrote:
fabianfred wrote:My present teacher, a Thai lady, mother and housewife, I and many followers consider to be arahant.
Since she is female the chance to ordain is not an option....what then ????
So she has absolutely no defilements?

Kevoin
And we are, Kevoin, to judge upon what basis?
For one, an Arahant can never experience a moment of restlessness. Nor will they ever get upset about anything-- stepping in a puddle of mud, getting hit, etc.

Those are some things to look out for.

A sotapanna on the other hand Tilt... well, you know.

Take care,
Kevin
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tiltbillings
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Re: Layman Arahant

Post by tiltbillings »

Virgo wrote:For one, an Arahant can never experience a moment of restlessness. Nor will they ever get upset about anything-- stepping in a puddle of mud, getting hit, etc.

Those are some things to look out for.

A sotapanna on the other hand Tilt... well, you know.
Ah, yes, the good old step in a puddle test for the supposed arahant. And then, of course, there is the if-you-say-you-are-you-aren't test for the sotapanna.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
lojong1
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Re: Layman Arahant

Post by lojong1 »

Zom wrote:How to test if someone is arahant:
http://www.buddhanet.net/budsas/ebud/ma ... hana-e.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
"Bhikkhus, [if the bhikkhu who declares perfection answers thus,] his words should be accepted as good words and he should be told. ‘Friend, it is great gain, that we meet co-associates like you.’"
HILARIOUS
"You're an Arahant, eh? Pleased to meet you. Now if you'll excuse me, there are these roots of trees..."
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Virgo
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Re: Layman Arahant

Post by Virgo »

tiltbillings wrote:
Virgo wrote:For one, an Arahant can never experience a moment of restlessness. Nor will they ever get upset about anything-- stepping in a puddle of mud, getting hit, etc.

Those are some things to look out for.

A sotapanna on the other hand Tilt... well, you know.
And then, of course, there is the if-you-say-you-are-you-aren't test for the sotapanna.
Hi Tilt,

If that were derived from the texts there wouldn't be a problem with it. The problem is, however, that many sotapannas announced their attainments to others in the texts.

Have a nice day,

Kevin
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tiltbillings
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Re: Layman Arahant

Post by tiltbillings »

Virgo wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:
Virgo wrote:For one, an Arahant can never experience a moment of restlessness. Nor will they ever get upset about anything-- stepping in a puddle of mud, getting hit, etc.

Those are some things to look out for.

A sotapanna on the other hand Tilt... well, you know.
And then, of course, there is the if-you-say-you-are-you-aren't test for the sotapanna.
Hi Tilt,

If that were derived from the texts there wouldn't be a problem with it. The problem is, however, that many sotapannas announced their attainments to others in the texts.
There is a massive difference between the texts, where there is the Buddha who can correct such a claim, if needs be, and someone, on an internet forum, declaring of himself "I am a sotapanna" or whatever level of ariya the individual might imagine of himself. Does it need to be spelled out?
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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Virgo
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Re: Layman Arahant

Post by Virgo »

tiltbillings wrote:
Virgo wrote: If that were derived from the texts there wouldn't be a problem with it. The problem is, however, that many sotapannas announced their attainments to others in the texts.
There is a massive difference between the texts, where there is the Buddha who can correct such a claim, if needs be, and someone, on an internet forum, declaring of himself "I am a sotapanna" or whatever level of ariya the individual might imagine of himself. Does it need to be spelled out?
If you would like to assert that the " if-you-say-you-are-you-aren't test for the sotapanna test" is wholly accurate you will need to explain where it is shown in the texts that sotapanna cannot announce such a thing. Many sotapannas announced themselves to others before the Buddha could give his endorsement that what they said is the truth. The truth is that your test does not work, though you would like it to.

Have a nice day.

Take care,
Kevin
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Re: Layman Arahant

Post by mikenz66 »

Virgo wrote:Many sotapannas announced themselves to others before the Buddha could give his endorsement that what they said is the truth.
Do you have any examples? Especially of lay people?

Mike
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Re: Layman Arahant

Post by Virgo »

mikenz66 wrote:
Virgo wrote:Many sotapannas announced themselves to others before the Buddha could give his endorsement that what they said is the truth.
Do you have any examples? Especially of lay people?

Mike
Sure, both Sariputta and Maha Mogallana announced it when they attained it, which was before they even met the Buddha. At that time they did not yet have the names "Sariputta" and "Maha Mogallana". Sariputta learned dhamma from a monk, he then became a sotapanna and told Maha Mogallana that he had. He then travelled with Maha Mogallana to Sariputtas teacher at that time and they told him about it (and one can presume from the account that they told all of the monks disciples as well, because they all travelled with Maha Mogallana and Sariputta to go learn from this teacher of the deathless, the Arahant). Maha Mogallana also attained before they met the Buddha.

Simavati also attained the Dhamma-eye while listening to a talk of the Buddhas she attended and then told the Queen about it. She had worked for the King, buying flowers for Royal Funerals (I assume many funerals where held there for all sorts of important people, not just the Royal Family). Every time she would steal half of the money for the flowers and use the other half to purchase them. There was still a large amount of flowers and no one noticed. One day, the lady she bought the flowers from told her the Buddha would be giving a talk and they both attended. She attained sotapanna. After that, she was given money to buy flowers again for the dead, but this time she used it all and bought the full amount. When the Queen questioned her as to why there were so many, she admitted that she had stolen part of the money each time in the past, but that this time she purchased them all, she said she could not steal because she was a sotapanna.

Many other lay people have, but I don't have all the examples in front of me.

Kevin
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tiltbillings
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Re: Layman Arahant

Post by tiltbillings »

Virgo wrote:Sure, both Sariputta and Maha Mogallana announced it when they attained it, . . . .
And then there was the Buddha who was there to deal with it if were a problem. Also, a textual statement is a world of difference from that of an unsupported self-claim on an internet forum. This has been dealt with at length elsewhere and there is no need of derailing this thread. If you wish to discuss this further, start a new thread.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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Re: Layman Arahant

Post by jcsuperstar »

Virgo wrote: For one, an Arahant can never experience a moment of restlessness. Nor will they ever get upset about anything-- stepping in a puddle of mud, getting hit, etc.

Those are some things to look out for.

A sotapanna on the other hand Tilt... well, you know.

Take care,
Kevin
I've met many people in my life who never seem to get upset or perturbed by anything, i would doubt they have any attainments. but this is besides the point. there is really no reason to denounce the claims of this person that his teacher is an arahant, doubt them, why sure that is just a healthy activity, i would doubt most any one's claim to any sort of attainment, in fact many of the people around here who say ajahn so&so is an arahant or whatever doesn't really do anything for me. i wouldn't go trying to knock them down a peg here though because many teacher's aryia or not are perfectly good examples of people walking the path so why not let someone think they have a level of attainment higher than they really have? as long as it's not the teacher claiming such things, and as long as the teacher remains a role model and not an object of worship it's not such a big deal. lets not go bashing teachers or placing doubts in students head please, especially on a forum where many students of different teachers come to learn, this place could turn into a never ending argument pretty quickly.
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the mountain may be heavy in and of itself, but if you're not trying to carry it it's not heavy to you- Ajaan Suwat
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