How to test if someone is arahant:
http://www.buddhanet.net/budsas/ebud/ma ... hana-e.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Layman Arahant
- tiltbillings
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Re: Layman Arahant
If they had no desire to do anything, then why would they have a desire to ordain or to teach?mud wrote:If a layperson were to become an arahant, then how would they live their daily life? They would have no desire to do anything. I imagine all they would do is teach dhamma, why would they not ordain? It seems like it would be the most effective use of the rest of their time.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.
“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.
“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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Re: Layman Arahant
The Buddha was asked if other teachers teaching might enable one to reach nirvana....and he replied, yes....if those teachings contained the Noble Eightfold path and Four Noble truths.thereductor wrote:The Pali canon is likely the only text to which you could surrender your moral authority and still be an exemplar person. But that's not what people are advocating, I don't think. But certain truths do have to be understood in order for Arahantship to be attained, and those truths are currently embodied in the canon. Not all parts of the canon are as essential as the other parts, but the essential truths are in there.Yodsak wrote:
David, my reply was aimed at Bodom's assertion that there are no arahants without the Buddhasasana.
And is the Pali canon (like the bible and the koran) unimpeachable?
Don't surrender your own moral autority please.
I suspect no others do.....
Re: Layman Arahant
So she has absolutely no defilements?fabianfred wrote:My present teacher, a Thai lady, mother and housewife, I and many followers consider to be arahant.
Since she is female the chance to ordain is not an option....what then ????
Kevoin
- tiltbillings
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Re: Layman Arahant
And we are, Kevoin, to judge upon what basis?Virgo wrote:So she has absolutely no defilements?fabianfred wrote:My present teacher, a Thai lady, mother and housewife, I and many followers consider to be arahant.
Since she is female the chance to ordain is not an option....what then ????
Kevoin
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.
“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.
“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
Re: Layman Arahant
For one, an Arahant can never experience a moment of restlessness. Nor will they ever get upset about anything-- stepping in a puddle of mud, getting hit, etc.tiltbillings wrote:And we are, Kevoin, to judge upon what basis?Virgo wrote:So she has absolutely no defilements?fabianfred wrote:My present teacher, a Thai lady, mother and housewife, I and many followers consider to be arahant.
Since she is female the chance to ordain is not an option....what then ????
Kevoin
Those are some things to look out for.
A sotapanna on the other hand Tilt... well, you know.
Take care,
Kevin
- tiltbillings
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Re: Layman Arahant
Ah, yes, the good old step in a puddle test for the supposed arahant. And then, of course, there is the if-you-say-you-are-you-aren't test for the sotapanna.Virgo wrote:For one, an Arahant can never experience a moment of restlessness. Nor will they ever get upset about anything-- stepping in a puddle of mud, getting hit, etc.
Those are some things to look out for.
A sotapanna on the other hand Tilt... well, you know.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.
“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.
“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
Re: Layman Arahant
"Bhikkhus, [if the bhikkhu who declares perfection answers thus,] his words should be accepted as good words and he should be told. ‘Friend, it is great gain, that we meet co-associates like you.’"Zom wrote:How to test if someone is arahant:
http://www.buddhanet.net/budsas/ebud/ma ... hana-e.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
HILARIOUS
"You're an Arahant, eh? Pleased to meet you. Now if you'll excuse me, there are these roots of trees..."
Re: Layman Arahant
Hi Tilt,tiltbillings wrote:And then, of course, there is the if-you-say-you-are-you-aren't test for the sotapanna.Virgo wrote:For one, an Arahant can never experience a moment of restlessness. Nor will they ever get upset about anything-- stepping in a puddle of mud, getting hit, etc.
Those are some things to look out for.
A sotapanna on the other hand Tilt... well, you know.
If that were derived from the texts there wouldn't be a problem with it. The problem is, however, that many sotapannas announced their attainments to others in the texts.
Have a nice day,
Kevin
- tiltbillings
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Re: Layman Arahant
There is a massive difference between the texts, where there is the Buddha who can correct such a claim, if needs be, and someone, on an internet forum, declaring of himself "I am a sotapanna" or whatever level of ariya the individual might imagine of himself. Does it need to be spelled out?Virgo wrote:Hi Tilt,tiltbillings wrote:And then, of course, there is the if-you-say-you-are-you-aren't test for the sotapanna.Virgo wrote:For one, an Arahant can never experience a moment of restlessness. Nor will they ever get upset about anything-- stepping in a puddle of mud, getting hit, etc.
Those are some things to look out for.
A sotapanna on the other hand Tilt... well, you know.
If that were derived from the texts there wouldn't be a problem with it. The problem is, however, that many sotapannas announced their attainments to others in the texts.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.
“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.
“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
Re: Layman Arahant
If you would like to assert that the " if-you-say-you-are-you-aren't test for the sotapanna test" is wholly accurate you will need to explain where it is shown in the texts that sotapanna cannot announce such a thing. Many sotapannas announced themselves to others before the Buddha could give his endorsement that what they said is the truth. The truth is that your test does not work, though you would like it to.tiltbillings wrote:There is a massive difference between the texts, where there is the Buddha who can correct such a claim, if needs be, and someone, on an internet forum, declaring of himself "I am a sotapanna" or whatever level of ariya the individual might imagine of himself. Does it need to be spelled out?Virgo wrote: If that were derived from the texts there wouldn't be a problem with it. The problem is, however, that many sotapannas announced their attainments to others in the texts.
Have a nice day.
Take care,
Kevin
Re: Layman Arahant
Do you have any examples? Especially of lay people?Virgo wrote:Many sotapannas announced themselves to others before the Buddha could give his endorsement that what they said is the truth.
Mike
Re: Layman Arahant
Sure, both Sariputta and Maha Mogallana announced it when they attained it, which was before they even met the Buddha. At that time they did not yet have the names "Sariputta" and "Maha Mogallana". Sariputta learned dhamma from a monk, he then became a sotapanna and told Maha Mogallana that he had. He then travelled with Maha Mogallana to Sariputtas teacher at that time and they told him about it (and one can presume from the account that they told all of the monks disciples as well, because they all travelled with Maha Mogallana and Sariputta to go learn from this teacher of the deathless, the Arahant). Maha Mogallana also attained before they met the Buddha.mikenz66 wrote:Do you have any examples? Especially of lay people?Virgo wrote:Many sotapannas announced themselves to others before the Buddha could give his endorsement that what they said is the truth.
Mike
Simavati also attained the Dhamma-eye while listening to a talk of the Buddhas she attended and then told the Queen about it. She had worked for the King, buying flowers for Royal Funerals (I assume many funerals where held there for all sorts of important people, not just the Royal Family). Every time she would steal half of the money for the flowers and use the other half to purchase them. There was still a large amount of flowers and no one noticed. One day, the lady she bought the flowers from told her the Buddha would be giving a talk and they both attended. She attained sotapanna. After that, she was given money to buy flowers again for the dead, but this time she used it all and bought the full amount. When the Queen questioned her as to why there were so many, she admitted that she had stolen part of the money each time in the past, but that this time she purchased them all, she said she could not steal because she was a sotapanna.
Many other lay people have, but I don't have all the examples in front of me.
Kevin
- tiltbillings
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Re: Layman Arahant
And then there was the Buddha who was there to deal with it if were a problem. Also, a textual statement is a world of difference from that of an unsupported self-claim on an internet forum. This has been dealt with at length elsewhere and there is no need of derailing this thread. If you wish to discuss this further, start a new thread.Virgo wrote:Sure, both Sariputta and Maha Mogallana announced it when they attained it, . . . .
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.
“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.
“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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Re: Layman Arahant
I've met many people in my life who never seem to get upset or perturbed by anything, i would doubt they have any attainments. but this is besides the point. there is really no reason to denounce the claims of this person that his teacher is an arahant, doubt them, why sure that is just a healthy activity, i would doubt most any one's claim to any sort of attainment, in fact many of the people around here who say ajahn so&so is an arahant or whatever doesn't really do anything for me. i wouldn't go trying to knock them down a peg here though because many teacher's aryia or not are perfectly good examples of people walking the path so why not let someone think they have a level of attainment higher than they really have? as long as it's not the teacher claiming such things, and as long as the teacher remains a role model and not an object of worship it's not such a big deal. lets not go bashing teachers or placing doubts in students head please, especially on a forum where many students of different teachers come to learn, this place could turn into a never ending argument pretty quickly.Virgo wrote: For one, an Arahant can never experience a moment of restlessness. Nor will they ever get upset about anything-- stepping in a puddle of mud, getting hit, etc.
Those are some things to look out for.
A sotapanna on the other hand Tilt... well, you know.
Take care,
Kevin
สัพเพ สัตตา สุขีตา โหนตุ
the mountain may be heavy in and of itself, but if you're not trying to carry it it's not heavy to you- Ajaan Suwat
the mountain may be heavy in and of itself, but if you're not trying to carry it it's not heavy to you- Ajaan Suwat